Charging anomaly

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by jdonalds, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    Ambient temperature 78. 100% charge shows 41 miles of ev range. Car has 29,319 miles and was purchased 12/5/17.

    If others could please record their numbers like I just did above I would appreciate it.

    I called Honda Customer Care and they said there is nothing they can do. They suggested I take it back to the dealer. I doubt if that is going to do much to change the situation but I'll do it because I don't know what else to do.

    The graphs I'm getting from my JuiceBox are now all showing a normal charge curve. The sawtooth patters I was seeing are no longer showing up.

    When I had a Prius I was able to use an ODBII bluetooth device paired with my Android phone. There was a plugin for the Torque app that allowed me to look at each cell of the Prius battery. I wish the same would be available for the Clarity.

    I'm getting frustrated with this issue. To me there is clearly something wrong. To Honda it is fine. I'm afraid we are at an impass and I'll be stuck with a car that gets 10-20% fewer electric miles. In the winter that will result in the ICE being used around town.

    I've looked over the field of available, or soon to be available, PHEV vehicles and nothing matches the Clarity.
  2. JCA

    JCA Active Member

    What kind of driving is the trip to school -- freeway/local roads? What are the average speeds you drive on each section?

    My commute is 19 miles each way, 13 of which is mostly free-flowing freeway, the rest arterial roads. My EV range numbers after a full charge vary from 41 to 50, depending on how hard/fast I drove the previous day or two especially on the freeway portion (under 65 vs 75+). 2019 purchased in March, ~2500 miles.
  3. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    It's about 7 miles of city 35-40mpg, with about 5 miles of 70mph freeway. The last bit close to home is 1/2 mile 14% uphill grade. His school is at 500 foot elevation. Home is at 750 foot elevation. Actually the freeway part is more in the middle with 35-40 mph at both ends.
    We've had the car about 18 months. Last summer we were seeing 48-53 miles of EV range when the car was 6 months old. Now, in the same timeframe we are seeing 39-41 ev mile range/actual. All driving is in EV/Econ mode around town. The only time we use HV is on trips out of town which might be about 6 weeks between trips.
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  4. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    Just to make my life more interesting...

    We had an unusual thing happen today. With the battery 25% charged we were forced to drive the car a short distance to a small nearby town. The round trip was about 28 miles and we ran out of battery juice on the return trip. I used a bit of HV on the way up to the town, then switched back to EV on the return trip which was mostly downhill. Once the charge read "0" the car went into "Normal" mode the rest of the way home. We rarely have the battery that low so it was a chance to go through a full charge cycle. In light of my recent battery issue I thought this could be interesting.

    About one hour and sixteen minutes into what should have been a 2 hour 10 minute process it stopped charging. My JuiceBox reported "Charging energy limit reached". I have no idea what that means. I searched through the manuals and online FAQ but found nothing. I sent an email to the company for more information. I looked at all of the parameters for any kind of limit or time related restriction but there are none.

    In my mind I'm thinking if this is my battery management or battery going bad further this might be a good thing!

    I unplugged the car then plugged it back in and it started charging again. I could not initiate charging from the HondaLink app.

    Does anyone have a clue what the JuiceBox Pro 40 message "Charging energy limit reached" might mean.

    Okay after 38 more minutes the charge cycle completed. The battery is at 100% showing 43 miles of EV range. Ambient temp is 70F.
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  5. NorCalPete

    NorCalPete New Member

    I may be able to help gather additional comparative data. I live about 90 miles away (in Chico) and also have a Juicebox Pro 40 (plug in, not hardwired). I can track my GOM and actual mileage, and my charge data for a few days for comparison purposes, given that we'll have similar weather conditions. And if you are willing to spend a day in Chico (and can bring your JB EVSE) we could do even more testing: charge your car using my JB, take both cars on a drive under matched conditions to compare ev miles, charge my car using your JB, etc.
    KentuckyKen likes this.
  6. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    Wow nice offer Pete. My grandaughter lives in Chico so this whole idea isn't out of the question. The next two weeks are pretty full though. I'll keep this in mind and get back to you. Thank you for the offer.
  7. DucRider

    DucRider Active Member

    I would repeat the run till it dies and charge to full cycle several more times and see how it behaves. We have a local dealer that specializes in used EV's (almost exclusively) and he routinely does this on full electrics when he gets them in. Not to absolute "0", but the Clarity PHEV doesn't let you truly do this either. He finds it often "restores" lost battery capacity. Works on Teslas, Nissan and VW consistently. Worth a shot. If nothing else, if you get a repeat of the stop at a partial charge, that info is also useful.
  8. NorCalPete

    NorCalPete New Member

    If you decide to take me up on it, PM me. Now that the spring semester is over (I'm a professor at Chico State), my schedule is very flexible for the next three months!
  9. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    I assume you mean forced HV (when the Clarity switches to HV because the battery is "empty," but doesn't light the HV icon) rather than NORMAL Mode (the intermediate level of accelerator aggressiveness that doesn't moderate Climate Control activity like ECON Mode). Your interrupted charging process is, indeed, very strange. It will be very interesting to learn what the Juicebox manufacturer tells you "Charging energy limit reached" means.

    I like @DucRider's suggestion to run the battery "empty." That way you could compare the actual EV range with the Guess-O-Meter's projection. However, with your busy schedule, it will probably be difficult to perform accurate same-temp/same-route/same-speed testing.
  10. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    The reason I said Normal was the HV indicator did not come on when the battery reached zero. Normal, to me, is a mode where the battery level is not maintained as is the suggested behavior for HV.
  11. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    Actually, the forced HV (with no HV icon on DII) does maintain the battery level at 2 bars. NORMAL Mode is one of the 3 user-selectable driving modes (which can be modified with HV and HV CHARGE), but it's not cool enough to get its own button.
  12. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    I have a JuiceBox 32 Pro, and when charging, the Status Screen looks like this:

    There is a parameter which I have never used (called "Charging Limit (kWh)"). This kind of sounds like it could relate to your "Charging Energy Limit Reached" message... The JuiceBox somehow thought that it had reached a predefined limit while charging. When you hover over this field, there is a pop-up message saying this:
    "Set how many kWh to add to car. Value of 0 means no limit". If your Juicebox somehow got a stray entry in this field, it could explain your experience.
    KentuckyKen likes this.
  13. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    At least one mystery solved. There was a 39 mile limit set in the JuiceBox app. This has nothing to do with the original problem, just the more recent problem when the charge cycle quit early.

    I received this from eMotorWerks
    Hello John,

    In the dashboard ( I see you have a charging limit set. I suspect this has been set by our system if you have not set it.

    Well I didn't set it so, as she said, it must have "been set by our system". I believe this happened after April 18 when I had encountered the initial problem. At that time I had contacted eMotorWerks and they guided me through some changes which may have resulted in this change. I don't recall setting a 39 mile limit - never would. I believe it was tied to changing the EVSE Efficiency value.

    The reason this just showed up is because it's been a very long time since we depleted the battery and did a 100% recharge. Only then did I hit the 39 mile limit. I removed the limit so it should not happen again.
  14. Robert_Alabama

    Robert_Alabama Well-Known Member

    This seems to be a back door way with a JuiceBox Pro to keep a car from charging to 100% if anyone is fighting with regen starting the ICE at the beginning of driving after a full charge (leave room for regen so as to not start ICE). Just have to be able to estimate amount of total charging needed to fully charge and subtract a kWh from it. Not a perfect option, but at least an option...
  15. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    The way the JuiceBox works is to limit it's total output when setting the limit. So if the car has zero charge and you set the limit for 40 miles that would stop at 40 miles. But if the car already has 10 miles of charge then the limit will attempt to charge it to 10+40. So only on an empty battery would this control provide the desired feature. I think you said that. I just wanted to offer different wording.
  16. Skip Irwin

    Skip Irwin New Member

    I've been watching this thread for a while and I keep thinking it is the tires. Tesla says that the aero covers for the model 3 wheels make a 10% difference in efficiency... I still can't grasp how essentially a hubcap can make that much difference! Then I wonder, in your case, what difference could tires make. The GOM data between users is comparing apples to oranges in my opinion... for example, lets say our cars had a hand operated parking brake and I drove my car around all the time with it engaged 3 clicks... well, my GOM would show a much lower range per charge because history is showing more kilowatts needed to move the car. If your tires are deeply cutting your car's efficiency, then the GOM is going to drop. Before you start looking at getting rid of your car, I'd change the tires first. To be able to compare apples to apples, your car needs to be configured like the apples are.
    Low Rolling Resistance Tires

    Rolling resistance is the energy lost from drag and friction of a tire rolling over a surface. The phenomenon is complex, and nearly all operating conditions can affect the final outcome. With the exception of all-electric vehicles, it is estimated that 4%–11% of light-duty vehicle fuel consumption is used to overcome rolling resistance. All-electric passenger vehicles can use approximately 23% of their energy for this purpose.

    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  17. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    The new tires were installed a week after the problem started.
  18. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    There are 3 things going on here that @jdonalds reported to happened in this order...

    First - The 'funny looking' charging curve
    Second - Reduced range
    Third - Removing the LRR tires

    Since this all happened within a week, it is difficult to conclude that the 'funny' charging curve is predominantly responsible for the reduction in range. A week is not really long enough to gain confidence in a persistently lower GOM reading.

    I know it was not intended to happen this way, but it is an unfortunate coincidence that the tires were changed so close to the charging anomaly. This places a cloud of doubt on causality. It is interesting that @NorCalPete graciously offered to help experiment with this. It would be asking a lot, but if he would swap tires for a stretch (maybe even a couple weeks), each of you will have made only one change. Well, it would still require some kind of controlled driving to eliminate all of the driving variables with the GOM.

    It would be very nice to unequivocally know the impact of the LRR tires.

    Does anyone have access to a dynamometer ?? !!!! Then again, the rolling resistance on a Dyno may have little similarity to the rolling resistance on the road. Simple things can wind up being sooooo complicated in real life !

    Given the recent revelation regarding the accidental limit for JuiceBox charging, is there even a remote chance that you were being deceived by this, and now you will be getting better range again?
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  19. DucRider

    DucRider Active Member

    The dealers tested the battery and it showed ~90% of original capacity, so much of the range loss is attributable to that. I'm sure the change away from LRR tires is also affecting range to a certain degree. The combination of those could easily explain the range reduction (with the lions share to the reduced battery capacity).
    The latest full charge he reported showed 43 miles of range @ an ambient of 70 degrees. When the car was 6 mos old he was getting 48-53.
  20. bpratt

    bpratt Active Member

    The EV miles of range reported by the car is only fairly accurate when the temperature is constant and your driving speed is constant. Otherwise, it can be fairly inaccurate. Instead of depending on EV miles reported by the car, I use miles per KWh just like you would use miles per gallon. I purchased my car late December 2017 and have tracked the miles per KWh ever since. I live in Salt Lake City where the low temp can be in the single digit or teens in the winter and above 100 in the summer. I do however only charge my car in a semi conditioned garage where the temperature is never less than 50 degrees in the winter and seldom above 85 degrees in the summer.
    Here is my monthly miles per KWh for the past year. Note the resistance heater has a very large effect on miles per KWh, but not the AC.
    Jun 2018 4.01
    Jul 2018 3.91
    Aug 2018 4.08
    Sep 2018 4.17
    Oct 2018 4.23
    Nov 2018 3.73
    Dec 2018 2.36
    Jan 2019 2.55
    Feb 2019 2.62
    Mar 2019 3.28
    Apr 2019 4.02
    May 2019 4.04

    At around 4.0 miles per KWh, my EV miles reported by the car varies between 56 and 64.
    Mowcowbell likes this.

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