Clarity Issues

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by jdonalds, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. Clarity_Newbie

    Clarity_Newbie Active Member

    @Casey Martin @DennisH

    Today I let my Clarity go to EV 0 and transition to ICE on its own. I did not engage HV mode myself nor did I engage Econ or Sport modes. Test was 18 min duration for 16 miles. Speeds 0 to 61 mph. Temps 44 to 46 f. Just routine around town driving and since traffic was light, I decided I could take some pics...and be safe at the same time.

    The link below will take you to a web page which has 5 sets of pictures, 3 pics in each set. They depict scan gauge data, the center stack and the dashboard. No more than 15 seconds elapsed between the 3 pics per set.

    The scan gauge is set to display... MXS...Hybrid battery cell max SOC (%), STC...hybrid battery SOC (%), HBV...hybrid battery voltage (volts) and RPM's.

    Link https://bdacomputer.homestead.com/

    What I thought might be of interest to you are the pics of the center-stack showing energy flow...as a real life example of what should/could be displayed under actual 0 EV conditions going x miles per hour. The scan gauge data may prove useful if you hook one up to your vehicle for comparison.

    The million dollar question is...what does your energy flow show when you get the high revs? Right before? During?

    With any luck Honda USA and the dealership will provide all the answers...until then data may help figure it out.

    Surely others know more than I about what the energy flow should be/look like when in 0 EV state in the real world. Hopefully they will weigh in as well. More input/knowledge is a good thing.

    Anywho...hope this helps.

    Good luck.
     
  2. Yannick

    Yannick Member

     
  3. Yannick

    Yannick Member

  4. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    @insightman I don't believe our characterization of usable max power on this car has been correct. An electric motor is a constant torque device. Therefore it produces maximum hp only at max rpm. My guess is our electric motor is geared for a top speed of about 100 mph, so at 50 mph the electric motor hp is only HALF its rated hp output. Because the ICE is also geared one speed to the wheels at 50 mph it is probably also at about half its maximum hp.

    The only way to see near max hp in this car is to accelerate full-out at high speed maybe 90 mph in gear icon mode. And determining the actual max hp point requires comparing the hp vs rpm curve for the ICE with the straight line for the motor, and add in any battery pack limitations, not easy.

    A "normal" car with a CVT or an AT with a torque converter can go to the max hp area and hold that for maximum acceleration. A manual transmission car can dance around the max hp area by shifting gears. Our cars can't do that. They can accelerate quite well because the electric motor produces constant torque from 0 rpm, which is much better than an ICE, but maximum hp is more of a fantasy than reality.

    None of this is an operational problem, our cars do just fine in the real world.
     
  5. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    Oh and of course BEVs are similar, max hp only at max rpm, but the hp is much easier to calculate without the interactions between the motor and the ICE.
     
  6. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    I agree that would be the only way to see near-max hp. However, the Clarity PHEV drops out of Engine drive (gear-icon) mode whenever you attempt serious acceleration. That's why I call the max horsepower claim bogus. When you accelerate full-out, the electric motor is on its own, producing 181 hp max.
     
  7. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    But again the motor's max hp is only at full speed and we never accelerate at 100 mph do we? So then realistically at say highway speeds of 70 there is only 127 hp available for max acceleration. So really the 181 hp claim, at least in comparison to ICE cars, is at least a bit artificial too (again same for all BEVs).

    Even a narrow range CVT would help performance a lot.
     
  8. JustAnotherPoorDriver

    JustAnotherPoorDriver Active Member

    Maybe I missed it earlier, but wouldn't the top HP of the gas engine be engineered to be the top speed that there's a gear icon (when the gear icon isn't showing, the gas engine is just generating electricity)? Does the gear icon show above ~70mph?
     
  9. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    I don't think so, it should be all about efficiency and who knows how efficiency corresponds to engine output.
     
  10. JustAnotherPoorDriver

    JustAnotherPoorDriver Active Member

    sorry if I wasn't clear. what I was saying was if we assume max HP at max RPM for the gas engine, which was stated earlier, we need to know the top speed at which the gas engine and wheels can be coupled to draw the total hp curve and find the max HP. Some of the post before were assuming that the max horsepowerfrom the gas engine is at 100 mph, but that would have been a bizzare engineering decision by Honda if the max wheel coupling speed is for example 70. They would have they would have set max RPM to be equal to the max speed at which the system allows the wheels to couple so we need to know what that speed is in order to figure the total hp curve
     
  11. Agzand

    Agzand Member

    In terms of driving experience I think it is probably close to a car with a 180 hp engine. The torque is more important than HP for normal driving speeds. A 180 hp gas engine will also generate much lower HP for 99% of normal driving.
     
    David Towle likes this.
  12. smith ho

    smith ho New Member

    This thread has a lot of topic on issues. It would be nice if those are separated to topic or catgorized to each issues accordingly. Now I have to read or scan all the pages so far :-( I wonder if there is a moderator.
     
  13. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    Highest gear icon speed I've seen is about 75, but my guess is this will go up in warmer weather.
     
  14. Shak

    Shak New Member

    Not really using the heater. One note, my MPKg is still at around 60. It is just that my tank cannot fill to the maximum capacity of Hydrogen. Even at almost empty, I am only get 2.8kg. Something is definitely not right. I have received a response from Honda and it is a joke -- oh the range is based on rigorous tests by EPA. I am not asking about MPKg, I am asking whey I can't fill my tank to the maximum capacity?
     
  15. Casey Martin

    Casey Martin New Member

    I have monitored this for well over a week now. Luckily the high revving with no power issue has not happened again. When I coast through the toll booth most of the time it does not go into EV mode. It usually stays in HV mode. I noticed it did switch to EV mode once but switched back to HV mode when I began to accelerate. When I accelerate after clearing the toll booth the motor will rev high but there has been the normal amount of power that the ICE provides. It has doesn't have the acceleration of EV mode of course but accelerated as expected.

    As of now I haven't encountered the ICE high revving without any power again. I do feel this car is seriously under powered when the SOV is at zero. With that said I am "learning" to drive the car based on when I will be able to charge again. For example, if I know I am going to be going over 35 miles without being able to charge I switch to HV mode as soon as I am cruising on the highway. I then switch back to EV mode when in the city or on roads where more power is required. Using HV mode on hilly back roads is atrocious. The motor will be screaming and it performs horribly. On flat roads HV mode does fine.

    Now that I am learning when to use what mode I can prevent the need to use HV mode in less than ideal situations. With that said I need to be aware of that and plan according. I can't just jump in and drive in EV mode and not adjust the modes for the length of trip I am taking. More or less there is a learning curve and I am getting use to it. I know this will be less of an issue when temperatures rise. Below 30 degrees I am averaging between 30-35 miles on a full charge. I am hoping to get close to 50 miles once the temps are in the 50s and above.
     
  16. Yannick

    Yannick Member

    Ok I was finally able to duplicate the high revs and other issues (up to 16 now) and make videos.
    I put 3 examples below, check the other videos on my you tube channel, it is pretty crazy to have so many issues and Honda does not do anything.
    High vs:

    Engine turning on by itself when barely accelerating an battery full:

    HV only and battery starts charging:


    To shed light on the issue: 1) Dealerships and Honda will never admit that something is wrong with the car because the minute they do, if they cannot fix it we can go after them through lemon law or class action. This is why we (group of people having High revs issues or other electronic problems) have been told that nothing is wrong with the car or that they cannot fix because they cannot duplicate.

    2) Arbitration does not work, went through that, lots of stress and waste of time. Honda lied through their teeth to save their butt + whatever the arbitrator said, they are not following (fix car and have specialist come inspect vehicle).

    3) Per Lemon law expert I hired, Honda has changed the way they handle claims, they prefers to go to court and drain you of all your money and time + bring an outside engineer that will say: I did not build the car but I do not see anything wrong with it. If you don't have deep pocket you are guaranteed to lose.

    So after 8 months of battling and sending over 20 videos and photos to the dealership to show the issues I got to a point were Honda sent me a letter saying that they were done and the dealer refused that I drop the car off. Yes I am not kidding!

    I finally sent the dealership a nasty email telling them that I had contacted all the news channels, my insurance company (do this if you have the high revs), with the you tube link to the high revs and if they didn't fix my car immediately I would sue them. Well, I received a phone call yesterday and they are sending a specialist. Now I am not sure if it will work but we might have some progress and maybe a fix down the road.

    PS: Has anyone seen on carcomplaint.com that 2 people got stuck wide open and totaled their car? One got injured. Very scary when your car has over 15 different electronic issue and Honda doesn't give a crap about you!
     
  17. petteyg359

    petteyg359 Active Member Subscriber

    99.999% of such cases are morons who are stomping on the wrong pedal and not letting go. Take them with mountains of salt.
     
  18. Phunny

    Phunny Member

    All if those videos are exactly what I would expect from a PHEV.
     
    Gearhead likes this.
  19. Lex

    Lex New Member

    Thanks to Yannick for taking the time to post the 3 videos and sorry for your frustration. I am a Clarity owner and from my experience, all three videos seem to be normal.
    Video 1: In HV going up an incline, I also hear my engine, especially if I move the accelerator up and down rather than try to keep the position steady. Hard to tell from a video if Yannick’s engine noise is “excessive”, but the car will try to maintain charge in HV so the small engine is pulling most of the 4000 lb vehicle weight, and it is also trying to guess your future needs so varying your throttle position does not let the charge algorithm “settle in.” Just today I drove the 1200 feet elevation gain in 3 miles at 55 mph with 25 miles of EV range (Kanan Road in the Santa Monica Mountains from PCH north to the tunnels, a 6.5%er) and could barely hear the engine, but I try to keep the throttle steady.
    Video 2: I have to ask if Yannick has 1/4 mile or more of downhill immediately after he leaves his house with a completely full charge. As other posts have noted, a fully charged Clarity will fire up the ICE when (surprisingly little) regenerative braking happens first thing on driving (i.e. a downhill start). In my case, only 2 gentle stops on short declines going no more than 25mph. Then once activated, the ICE will not shut down until it is fully warmed up (noted in owners manual). I have found only two ways to prevent this: Don’t charge completely full. Or coast in neutral down the first incline until I can use up some battery in my first hard acceleration (to 55 mph) out of my neighborhood.
    Video 3: I have also noted the engine charging the battery while at rest on the power flow, as shown. But rarely for more than 20-30 seconds with a warm engine, and presumably to maintain battery state of charge while in HV.
    In short. I can agree with Yannick that the most annoying thing about the Clarity is the whining sound of the ICE when you have to mash the accelerator, especially with a depleted battery. And when that happens, the generator-like sound, like a CVT, takes some getting used. But I have found the noise to be infrequent, and even less intrusive than my old Camry hybrid on hills (typical CVT whine). The total silence of the Clarity 98% of the time has spoiled me so that ANY engine noise is now unwelcome!
     
    MPower and petteyg359 like this.
  20. Yannick

    Yannick Member

    Hi Lex,
    I learned a lot about the car today when showing the Honda Tech how loud the car revs when angree bees and sluggish power happens.
    My video was taken up Kanan, please contact me by email, I would like to speak with you before posting stuff.
    Yannicktruchi@verizon.net
    Thanks much.
     

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