RPM comparative data

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Clarity_Newbie, Jan 29, 2019.

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  1. Clarity_Newbie

    Clarity_Newbie Active Member

    Thought it would be interesting to have comparative data for perspective.
    Notes: Rav4 driver habits are different (my wife), not many miles on interstate, climate variables different etc. I used the same breakpoints for the Rav4 as I did the Clarity for simplicity.

    For the Clarity...31 log files generated 81,800 data points. GVW 4260. Clarity test 01/11-01/17 Data posted January 17, 2019

    Clarity Speed breakdown
    • 1 - 35 mph 39.4%

    • 36 - 60 mph 42.3%

    • 61 - 79 mph 18.3%
    Clarity RPM breakdown
    • ‹ 1000 - 40.47%

    • 1001 to 2600 - 56.59%

    • 2601 to 3600 - 2.39%

    • 3601 to 4445 - 0.55%
    For the Rav4***...34 log files generated 85,580 data points. GVW 4150. Rav4 test 01/17-01/22 Data posted January 29, 2019

    Rav4 Speed breakdown
    • 1 - 35 mph - 63.5%

    • 36 - 60 mph - 32.5%

    • 61 - 72 mph - 3.9%

    Rav4 RPM breakdown
    • < 1000 - 44.6%

    • 1001 - 2600 - 54.6%

    • 2600 - 3600 - .73%

    • 3601 - 4192 - .07%

    OBDll collecting data on a friends Clarity 01/23 - 01/31

    The OBDll will be connected to my Clarity for the 28 days of February. The Clarity will be driven as normal for the entire month. I anticipate 70% EV and 30% HV. Data should be interesting for both RPM’s and ICE activation. The ultimate goal is to establish a baseline of data. This may assist those who experience high revs or loss of power especially if data can be collected off those vehicles...at least that is the goal.

    Hope this helps.

    *** 2017 Rav4 hybrid 2.5 liter, 194 hp @ 5700 rpm
     
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  2. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    Very interesting. Good info.
     
  3. ClarityDoc

    ClarityDoc Active Member

    Agree - very interesting. What OBDII and app combo? Just wondering how easy this was to setup & collect.
     
  4. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    What's the highest RPM anyone with OBD-II instrumentation has seen? Is 4445 rpm the highest? What qualifies as "angry bees?"
     
  5. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW Well-Known Member

    The highest I have seen is between 4300 and 4400. That was traveling 80 on completely flat interstate. Battery was about 20% SOC and I had HV Charge mode on.

    In my experience, angry bees start when in the mid to high 3000 RPM range. I have only experienced it when I’m stop and go traffic and the battery is very cold therefore it doesn’t assist as much.

    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
  6. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    What!?! All this time I assumed the horrible angry bees sound being reported meant something like 6,000 RPM! It appears that the engine sounds that I consider normal are other posters' angry bees.
     
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  7. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Perspective is EVERYTHING. Anthony states his perspective is that angry bees start at 3,000...Insightman's is beyond redline...

    While I see and enjoy the exaggeration stated by Insightman, I also see we all differ greatly. And it seems only about 2 or 3? have invested in tachometers to quantify their angry bees with an actual number.
     
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  8. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW Well-Known Member

    I mistyped. Angry bees starts around 3600 to 3900. For me it is only noticeable when the torque is low/inadequate and the RPMs are high such as starting from a full stop with little assist from the battery. At highway speeds angry bees is much less noticeable at the higher RPMs


    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  9. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member Subscriber

    I think we need a scale like they use for hurricanes to describe the differences in Noise, Vibration, and Harshness (NVH). I suggest:

    NVH 0 - the engine is on but I can barely tell
    NVH 1 - the engine is audible and is busy keeping up the pace (RPMS probably 2000 - 3000)
    NVH 2 - the engine is really working hard (RPMs 3600 - 4000; what many are calling 'angry bees')
    NVH 3 - the engine sounds like it is red-lining and feels like it is going to rip itself to pieces (described as stuck in first gear at highway speeds; RPMs probably >4500?)
    NVH 4 - same sound as in NVH3 but accompanied by loss of power and the car slows as a result

    With occasional use of the ICE you will probably encounter NVH 2, as I have, but it is not common, and not a big concern. I think the other two are much less easily triggered and may be specific to a handful of cars with an issue with a sensor or a computer malfunction that may be addressed by a dealer, or failing that a hard reset by disconnecting the 12V battery for a couple of minutes. I recommend that if you have encountered NVH 3 or NVH 4 it may be worth investing in an OBD II reader (they are cheap) and set it up to log routinely so that when it happens you have a trail of data to provide to the dealer and Honda.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  10. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    I like your scale. Your NVH 3 is what I believed the angry bees reporters were experiencing. However, as @craze1cars has pointed out, it's all a matter of individual perception because the Clarity PHEV doesn't give us a tachometer read-out on any of its screens.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  11. Mark W

    Mark W Active Member

    Good discussion. I think there may be plenty of people like Insightman where they hear the term Angry Bees, seem to think that it's some malfunction or something. It's so subjective. I have had numerous occasions where my engine has revved higher than seems necessary for the conditions. It's striking because there just seems to be no explanation for why it would need to rev so high. The battery was not depleted, was not going uphill, and was not accelerating strongly.

    Most of the time (80%?), when it is in HV mode the engine noise quiet enough where I don't notice it unless I listen for it. Then there is the 19%? of the time where the engine sounds like a small 4 cylinder engine trying to power a heavy mid-size car. To me, this sound is unfortunate, because it's just distracting being so different from the usual sound. But I chalk this up to the fact that I'm driving a car that has to make comprimises. It's a heavy, midsize car that has a big enough battery for most of my trips, so I can't expect a big quiet gas engine too.

    It's that 1% of the time though that some people call the angry bees that just seems like an engineering mistake by Honda. It has never happened with a guest in the car. If it did, I would expect them to ask what was happening.

    I would expect this high revving under the following conditions:
    1) Pushing really hard on the accelerator for extreme acceleration.
    2) Going up a steep grade with low battery power
    3) Operating in HV charge mode and requiring moderate acceleration or climbing a hill

    Whenever I have heard it, it was not in any of these situations. I would love to hear an explanation from Honda about what exactly causes it. It seems possible to me that it is a software oddity that could be rectified, where it only would happen under one of the stressful situations outlined.
     
  12. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member Subscriber

    Sorry I flubbed my post, but edited it in time. I meant to say many of us who use the ICE occasionally will experience NVH 2 (angry bees at 3600 - 4000 RPM). I fixed the comment.
     
  13. SkipperT

    SkipperT Member

    Nice scale.

    I just find it a bit amusing that we as a collective consider engine noise to be “angry bees “ at RPMs less than 4500.

    In my professional life I work on engines that regularly turn 8-12,000 rpm before they redline. One sport bike in particular will hit redline around 17,000 RPM!
    Which sounds amazing on the dyno btw.

    All about perspective and at what RPM the engine is designed to make its peak power or to be its most efficient.

    -Skip



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    x2...as another person who has a small amount of hands on dyno experience, and does not fear revving, and understands that a Honda 4 cyl revving at 5,500 redline is NOT in any way a stressed piece of machinery...I sometimes find it amusing how many other people fear higher revs.

    Had a buddy with a 4 cylinder underpowered Jeep, 5 speed manual. He complained it wouldn’t keep up highway speeds going up hills....even when floored it would keep slowing down. Finally rode with him and I was like DUDE...you gotta downshift!! He never did. Said the higher rpms would hurt the motor. So instead he would leave the pedal floored as his rpms slowed from 1800 to 1500 to 1200 and the engine knocked and screamed and begged for mercy. The Jeep was BEGGING for the mercy of a 4,000 Rpm 3rd speed run up those hills. Sigh. Couldn’t teach that old dog the right way.

    The chart is interesting, but I disagree with the wording. To me an engine like Clarity has that is loafing along at 1500 rpms is very inefficiently operating itself while one spinning at 4,500 to 5,000 is singing music to my ears and doing the full amount of work it is designed to to...it sure as heck doesn’t sound like it’s going to rip itself to pieces in any way.

    I owned a Yamaha snowmobile 4 cylinder 4 stroke that spun 12,000rpm when full throttle, and “cruised” all day long for 200 mile casual rides in the 8,000 range with the way it was clutched and geared. Very similar to the sport bike motors you reference. And it’s known as one of the most reliable and longest lasting engines in snowmobiles to-date.

    High Rpm within design parameters doesn’t hurt engines. Not one bit. Most casual car owners of any type of car simply don’t realize this, and they fear the sound.

    As had been stated many times, many ways, perspective is everything...and it varies greatly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  15. Clarity_Newbie

    Clarity_Newbie Active Member

    As described in an earlier post...the parameters for data collection on the Clarity and my thoughts on the 3601 - 4445 RPM's can be found here...context is important of when/why they occurred.

    https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/hv-only-gas-mileage.4089/page-3#post-45189

    As noted by others in this thread and earlier threads, the term "angry bees" means nothing to me as it is totally subjective. According to Honda USA, Clarity is rated 103hp @ 5500 rpm...one would think "excessive" high revs would be above that. Dunno...just theorizing at this point.

    What is a concern to me are the folks reporting "high revs and loss of power" and that is ultimately the user group whom I hope to help with RPM data. Obviously, data from those affected would be invaluable.

    A baseline of "typical" RPM's from a "normal" Clarity should be formed from as many data sources as possible...assuming quality data.

    What I don't know is, nor assume,....DOES the Clarity I drive exhibit NORMAL performance or is it an outlier? Mo' data.
     
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  16. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member Subscriber

    Coincidentally, I was on the highway this morning in ECON mode, and punched the throttle to pass a car, and it triggered the engine to come on and within a couple of seconds it was up to >5000 RPM.

    Time, RPM
    09:54:12.1, RPM = 1173 (engine sparks to life; before this RPMs were 0)
    09:54:12.8, RPM = 2246
    09:54:13.5, RPM = 4201
    09:54:14.2, RPM = 5057
    09:54:14.9, RPM = 5364
    09:54:15.5, RPM = 3642

    Probably just an anomaly with it trying to go fast suddenly, and > 4000 RPM only lasted ~2 seconds. To be honest, I didn't even notice the engine coming on until a couple of minutes later when the RPMs were at 1500 and I was off the highway. At the time of the high RPMs I was probably distracted by the pass and the exit I was approaching, and watching for cars, plus the road was wet so there was more road noise than usual. I'm sure if it was >4000 RPM for 15+ seconds it would have captured my attention.

    Before today, the highest RPM number I recall seeing was 38XX, and that was sustained for a short time so it was more noticeable. If I have time tonight I will see if I can extract some episodes of OBD data that I have collected recently.
     
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  17. Agzand

    Agzand Active Member

    A Honda S2000 will spin around 4500 rpm on the highway at 80 mph. Their engines are still ok after 20 years.
     
  18. Ray B

    Ray B Active Member Subscriber

    4500 is not a firm number. Before today the max RPM I have measured on mine was ~3800 (which seemed to me like the engine was a little bit straining when it was happening, but certainly nothing to loose sleep over), so I was projecting that extreme RPMs should be >4500 RPM. It could be 12,000 RPM, but until someone captures the data on a reader when the engine is screaming bloody murder, we can only give a guess. I'm happy to amend my estimate to >6000 RPM if that helps.
     
  19. Clarity_Newbie

    Clarity_Newbie Active Member

    Ray B

    Kinda makes sense to me given the Clarity is rated 103hp @ 5500 rpm.

    A leading question...How did the engine whine sound compared to a typical 4 cyl ICE?

    The reason I ask...today I plugged in the SGll to a 2019 Subaru Impreza hatchback, 2.0L engine, CVT. Max RPM recorded was 4485. All my driving is normal, everyday routes and acceleration etc...nothing different.

    To me...it may a octave thing. Typical 4 cyl ICE produces a engine noise at 4500 rpms but it is a lower octave in my mind then the Clarity. The Clarity to me has a much higher octave to it...which makes it more noticeable IMHO. In an earlier thread, @craze1cars brought up the comparison of the Clarity to a generator running. I have a 17kW generator run by LP gas sitting next to the house. When it runs a test mode, RPMS are recorded at ~2600 and it sounds surprisingly similar to the Clarity when it revs up a little. The generator registers higher octaves as well to my ear.

    Point is...people are used to hearing the traditional ICE engine noise when at high RPMs. The Clarity sounds nothing like the traditional 4 cyl ICE engine when revving...much more like a generator.
     
  20. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    I assumed this was common knowledge but maybe not. Redline on almost any modern car is electronically governed. Which means for example if you take a standard Accord (6,800 rpm redline per Honda), leave the engine in park, and put your foot to the floor (not recommended with no load...THIS could do damage), the computer will cut fuel and ignition as needed to prevent the engine from ever exceeding 6,800 rpm. This is also generally the shiftpoint for automatic transmission cars, if you floor the car from a standing start and don't lift, the car will shift to each successive gear right as the engine reaches redline, like in a drag race situation.

    Honda states Clarity redline is 5,500...pretty low number but for an Atkinson engine this is not unusual -- they are very low performance engines that do better at lower RPM ranges. I would fully expect that this number simply CANNOT be exceeded. By anyone. Ever. Unless you mess with the programming of the car somehow. And I would also fully expect that if you do a standing start drag-race, put foot to floor, and let the car go from zero to 60 mph, or 100 mph the Clarity engine will be running very near 5,500 rpm the whole time it is accelerating (because this car has no transmission, you won't see any shifts), and this figure should show on your readings for any of you who might want to try this once (I suggest doing it with a warmed up engine, in which case it will do no harm as engine will be under load and it will cost you probably 30 cents in fuel for a one time shot in the name of science).

    So Ray B I highly doubt your 5364 was an anomaly -- you said yourself you floored the car briefly. So I'd fully expect rpms to get up to about this level for that instant, based on the Clarity spec sheet. Again it's how the Clarity is designed to operate, and you captured the moment. And I can very confidently state that nobody here will ever hear, or record, this engine going any faster than 5,500.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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