Car and Driver

Discussion in 'General' started by bwilson4web, Jan 13, 2021 at 1:20 AM.

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  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    Car & Driver claims:
    • $.26/kWh - SuperCharger cost
    • $2.77/gal - Premium unleaded
    So using EPA metrics:

    • 25 kWh/100 mi * $0.26/kWh = $6.50/100 mi :: 2019 Std Rng Model 3 (mine)
    • 4.0 gal/100 mi * $2.77/gal = $11.08/100 mi :: 2020 BMW M340i
    • 26 kWh/100 mi * $0.26/kWh = $6.76/100 mi :: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range
    • 29 kWh/100 mi * $0.26/kWh = $7.54/100 mi :: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD Performance
    I prefer the EPA tests because of reproducible speed and driving profile. In contrast, C&D uses unreproducible driving patterns. So I call "bovine fecal matter" on the C&D article.

    Now if they did an Edmunds style, "smack down" where several cars drove the same route and drivers were rotated, there could be something learned. But they have shown the same lack of rigorous test protocol as Consumer Reports.

    Bob Wilson
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  3. Recoil45

    Recoil45 Member

    I don’t see why people get so hung up on fuel costs. Drive the car/truck that excites you and pay the bill. It’s only a small part of your monthly expenses.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  4. DaleL

    DaleL Active Member

    One issue with the EPA tests is that because they are 100% reproducible, some auto manufacturers have "gamed" them. In the past it has been ICE vehicle manufacturers (VW) who have done so to pass either the emissions standards or exaggerate mileage (Hyundai). Electric car manufacturers also "game" the test to obtain higher total range estimates.

    As for my 2018 Clarity, at 42 mpg with regular ($2.25/gal), I estimate $5.36/100 miles using just gasoline. My home electricity rate is only $0.11/kWh (Florida) or just $3.41/100 miles. A Tesla Model 3 owner in Florida, using home charging, would pay just $2.86/100 miles.

    Teslarati has a story about a Tesla owner who spent less than $70 in electricity on a 1248 mile road trip. At 42 mpg and $2.25 per gallon for regular gasoline, my Clarity would make the same trip for $67.

    The most recent financials from Tesla indicate that Tesla is not making money directly from the sale of their vehicles. Tesla is making money in other areas such as selling pollution credits. It also appears that Tesla is going to increasingly make money reselling electricity through their supercharger network. This business model is not unusual. Conventional auto manufacturers have often sold vehicles at cost or even for a loss. They make it up in other areas such as financing and parts sales.

    Tesla Supercharger Network allows Model 3 owner to travel from NY to FL for less than $70 (
    EPA to Test for Cheat Devices, Finally (
    EPA fines Hyundai and Kia $100M over inaccurate MPG ratings (
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    Requirements vary by individual and generally split into:
    • Mandatory (YES or NO) - a family of five won't be happy with a smaller car.
    • Optional (score) - requirements that can have a weighted score. For example, color, cargo space/weight, or towing.
    So let me share my requirements:
    1. Ability to travel 750 miles in less than 24 hours
      • Reliable, dense charging network.
      • Low kWh per mile.
      • High speed DC charging.
    My Mom lives just under 750 miles from my home. My late wife was about 750 miles away from her kids in Washington DC. It turns out that 750 miles matches my biological limit. So this becomes a mandatory requirement but achievement has many optional paths.

    The reliability, dense SuperCharger network means fast DC charging is in the 120-180 mile segments after the first. Lowest power per mile means affordable trips as well as bridging the gaps between chargers. Finally, having a high, peak charge rate minimizes the time spent at a charger.

    The C&D analysis was flawed in the cost per mile. It also omitted the charging network density and charging speed. But I can understand others may not care about efficiency because the value other things.

    Bob Wilson
  6. ericy

    ericy Well-Known Member

    I hadn't heard that your wife had passed. So sorry to hear this.
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  8. marshall

    marshall Active Member

    "I hadn't heard that your wife had passed. So sorry to hear this."

    Bob mentions his wife it in the Tesla forum.
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member


    My wife of 43 years, Holly, suffered from: (1) AFIB (common in older folks); (2) end stage renal failure (doesn't kill or hurt but makes you vulnerable to other maladies), and; (3) advanced dementia. She was under home hospice care and breathing somewhat heavy in her TV recliner when I took dogs to park and errands. Upon returning, I opened a cup of pudding to feed her and she was not breathing and temperature 85 F at home.

    Bob Wilson
  10. briloop

    briloop Member

    Bob, I'm sorry for your loss.
  11. Recoil45

    Recoil45 Member

    • That is exactly it.

      I drive what I like. I don’t care what it costs. Probably a half of car/truck owners are the same. Look how many Jeep’s are on the road getting low teens for MPG. They could save a ton buying even a gas Corolla but they will never cross shop a Corolla or EV. It just doesn’t matter to them.

      Some of us even own boats with twin BBC engines.

      There is no reason to label someone who wants to drive a gas car or someone who wants the most efficient EV.

      People should enjoy what they like in a free country.

      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  13. Recoil45

    Recoil45 Member

    Sorry for your loss..

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  14. ericy

    ericy Well-Known Member

    Generally I do care about efficiency, but there are always caveats, trade-offs and in some cases deal-breakers. If efficiency was literally the only factor, I might look at the Aptera, but that just doesn't seem like a practical vehicle. If I had the budget and garage space of a Jay Leno, I would get one anyways..
    • I care about comfortable seats - which generally isn't an issue, but it might exclude some cars.
    • I care about whether the car has non-serviceable parts, which might cause the car to end up in a scrapyard earlier than expected, and reduce resale values.
    • I care about general build quality, and while these issues can be fixed, it is just a pain in the neck to deal with these things
    • I prefer cars that are up a bit taller than a sedan. They are just a whole lot easier to get in and out of, and it is easier to see around other taller cars. But a taller car has more air resistance, and that costs you efficiency.
    • Cargo capacity is somewhat important. But that usually comes at a cost in terms of weight and efficiency.
    • Other things like roof rails and/or a tow hitch (even if you only use it to haul a bike). These things can kill efficiency, of course, but can be quite useful if you only need them once in a while. And can be a pain if you don't have them and are then limited.
    • Safety features, such as ACC, lane keeping, etc, etc.
    bwilson4web likes this.

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