Honda dishonest about EV Range (in cold climates)

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Yonno, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. JulianClarity

    JulianClarity Active Member

    Lol, I remember a lady in our company told us solar power is great, because she used to pay over $600 for electric bills every month, now she only needs about a few tens of bucks. $600 bills in the Bay Area, I was totally shocked. She could have installed a nest thermostat to save her from leaving the air conditioning on all year long.
     
  2. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Given your further rather lengthy comments regarding nuclear power, it's clear that was a rush to judgement on my part. It was prompted by your comment about warmer water from the nuclear plant's cooling system causing changes to the local environment. That's the sort of thing that is found in all too many anti-nuclear-power screeds. While true, I think the concern is rather overblown.

    Anyway, I appreciate your more lengthy comments in your last posts, and it's clear that you have a pretty thorough education on the subjects you commented on.

    My apologies for thinking otherwise. Definitely my error; mea culpa.

    No, you're twisting my words. There's a wide gulf between being mistaken and lying, and I certainly have not stated or implied that you have practiced any level of mendacity.

    From the bulk of your last post, David -- and a very good post it was, other than the bit quoted immediately above -- I think we could have a meaningful dialogue. But not if you insist on misinterpreting me saying "That comment is erroneous, and here's why" as "You're a liar". That is a decidedly non-trivial difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
    David Towle likes this.
  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Indeed. I was shocked when the Japanese government made permanent what should have been a temporary evacuation of most of the Fukushima Exclusion Zone. Doubly shocked considering how crowded the settled parts of Japan are, and how valuable all that real estate is.

    From what I've read -- I'm not an expert, but I've read several in-depth articles and some arguments on the subject -- about 85% of the Exclusion Zone has a background radiation level no more than twice that of what's normal in most areas. By comparison, Denver, Colorado also has about twice the normal background radiation level. Due to its nearly mile-high altitude, the air above the city is thinner, which blocks less of the radiation coming from outer space. However, the Denver area is certainly not noted for having a higher than normal cancer rate. In fact, it's a bit lower than the average, for some reason I haven't seen explained.

    But you're right. It's politically impossible for any politician to advocate a new generation of nuclear power plants. I'd love to see something like NuScale's small modular nuclear reactors deployed in areas where new power plants are needed; nuclear reactors designed and built to be truly fail-safe, in a way that existing nuclear reactors are not. We'll be needing a lot of new power plants in the coming years, as the EV revolution progresses and demand for industrial levels of electricity at ultra-fast charging stations becomes commonplace.

    As I said in an earlier post, regarding nuclear power: If humans were a rational species... but we're not.

    Alternatively, we should have a Manhattan Project level of commitment to developing grid-scale storage battery systems, to make solar power (and to a more limited extent, wind power) more practical. Trying to use batteries designed for BEVs is much too expensive for large-scale installations, and altho prices are dropping fairly rapidly, I don't see them getting down to the dirt-cheap level we'd need for large-scale energy storage. The episode of PBS's "Nova" series entitled "Search for the Super Battery" had a segment on "dirt batteries", very cheap but very large, heavy batteries; that sort of tech might be ideal for large scale grid storage.
     
  4. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Ahhhhh! You might indeed have figured out why so many of our forum members have been posting reports of the Clarity PHEV turning on the gas motor near the beginning of a trip, even when the battery pack was full or nearly so.

    Mystery solved, perhaps?

     
  5. As a data point, I was seeing EV range in the high 30’s charging outside with overnight temps down to the 20’s. Yesterday we cleared out a spot in our hangar/garage and charged there. Though unheated, the temperature inside never went below 50° overnight.

    I was surprised to see the same 38 miles EV this morning with 100% charge - I had expected higher. All with the L1 stock charger, BTW.

    As data points, we do make somwhat regular, somewhat spirited 90+ drives across the mountains in SPORT mode. But the last couple of drives were local, driving like an old man in ECON. I wonder how long the car needs to reprogram your driving style if it changes pretty regularly.
     
  6. JimW

    JimW Active Member

    In this case, I let the traction battery run down to 5 EV miles by Sunday night. I drove a lot on Sunday and did not plug in that night, because I typically charge for free at work. On Monday morning, when I saw 15 deg F, I turned on pre-conditioning, which drained the battery to 0 EV range (2 bars). So driving to work on Monday, the car goes into HV mode, running engine and stopping engine when stopped at a light. At the second light, I was surprised when the ICE started up with a shudder while I was sitting still. Learning that the car uses an "on demand electric water heater", my theory is the ICE had not yet produced much residual heat, the climate control called for more heat, triggering the "water heater", the traction battery couldn't provide the juice, so ICE started to produce heat.

    In the case of the other posters, they had plenty of traction battery power left, so I don't think the ICE would need to be started for heat. With plenty of battery power, I've found the "water heater" to heat very quickly and produce a lot of heat. This car blows hot air more quickly than my previous ICE cars.
     
  7. Chuck

    Chuck Member

    The car seems to look at the last 5+ times you have driven to calculate the estimate. My wife drove the car several days in a row with the heat on and the range settled 38 after a charge. I drove it one day without much heat and the range went to 42, the next day it was 44. In the spring with no heat or AC we would see around 60 miles or range. It obviously takes quite a few drives to fully move the estimate. It doesn't get below freezing here so I have not notice any range changes during charging. I must say the Clarity is behaving exactly as I expected as far as the winter range is concerned. This is our 3rd EV(Yes it's a PHEV) and each one performs similarly. I want to commend the EPA/GM for how accurate they range is. I get about 39 miles of range during the winter and 58 during the spring/fall. Guess what number is just about in the middle, yep 47 mile. Our Chevy Bolt goes 195 miles with the heater going all the time and 290-300 miles during the warmer months. The official range is 247. Our previous Chevy Spark performed exactly the same. I tell people who ask figure you get about 80% of the stated range in the winter and 122% in mild weather. (Your driving styles may vary ;))
     
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  8. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    I am not surprised that your EV range guesstimate wasn't different. The car was applying history to calculate the range, and nothing had changed. I also wonder how long it takes to react to observing a different EV range, but it's going to be one of the many mysteries about which we can speculate but are unlikely to have any actual facts.
     
  9. David Towle

    David Towle Active Member

    I accept that you did not intend that, thanks, and my apologies for misinterpreting.
     
  10. 4sallypat

    4sallypat Active Member

    Very good observation! Yes, the 47 mile range is an AVERAGE and while those who live in frigid areas see lower numbers, those that live in warm climates where our A/C is on 10 months out of the year: I am getting 95%-125% miles per charge so 47 is rather a low figure.

    Past few mornings I have been seeing 60+miles per charge from the OEM L1 Honda charger....
     
  11. MNSteve

    MNSteve Well-Known Member

    I am looking forward to seeing my range increase with moderating weather - that's more than double what I see.

    But I'm curious ... is that estimate of range accurate, based on what you're actually seeing when you drive? And what's your general driving environment - in-city, highway, racetrack?
     
  12. 4sallypat

    4sallypat Active Member

    Yes, the range is accurate because I have been measuring the distance I drive daily (commute in low speed city traffic using regen paddles). During the commute week, it's all EV (zero fuel).
    Interestingly, I get the 60+ miles per charge during the week (Tuesday - Saturday)

    The miles per charge changes (lowers) during the weekend when I drive more highway and HV mode.
    Monday, it reflects that with a lower miles per charge from the weekend.

    It's a pretty smart system...
     
  13. JCEV

    JCEV Active Member

    Or you could drive a gas guzzling SUV and get what I got in on my trip to work this morning..

    Rated 12.8L per 100km in the city, I got 21.2.
     

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  14. Good point.

    I guess I was mistakenly thinking that charging at warmer temps was somehow more “efficient”.

    But I suppose 100% charge is 100% charge, regardless of the efficiency in getting there.

    I guess I’ll keep driving like an old man and see what happens!
     
  15. ringf4g4plugin guy

    ringf4g4plugin guy New Member

    I charge on a 110 volt charger that comes with the car and I can not figure out how to charge the battery while the seat warmers are operating. Can you give me some help on how to do it?
     
  16. ringf4g4plugin guy

    ringf4g4plugin guy New Member

    I live in Fla and still see a big drop in EV mileage if I run the heater. Have not been able to run the seat heaters and charge the battery at the same time. I use the cord charger that comes with the car, can you tell me how to keep the battery charged to the max while running the seat heaters?
     
  17. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    Unlike the climate-control system, the seat heaters are powered by the 12v battery. That means the high-voltage battery must send power through the DC-to-DC converter to recharge the 12v battery as it powers the seat-heater(s). On the other hand, the climate-control system operates from the high-voltage battery, and is designed to take power from the EVSE rather than either battery when the car is plugged in. So after your Level 1 EVSE has charged the battery, you can run the climate-control system without reducing the charge in either battery.

    Edit: Now that I think about it, I believe the fan (but not the resistance heater, the major current eater) in the climate-control system IS powered by the 12-volt battery.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  18. As a follow up...

    After a couple local drives in ECON, my full-charge EV showed as 44 yesterday. Ran a couple errands in ECON EV, driving 26 miles and showing 24 remaining when arriving home. I’ll let you do the math!

    Anyway, after charging overnight the EV range shows as 48 miles. All this with temps in the 30’s to low 40’s. Much better!

    So, my new SOP is ECON when puttering around town, and SPORT for our recurring blitzes over the mountains, using EV to 20 miles remaining, then HV until 20 miles from home. It’s worth any small hit in mileage to have the responsiveness and persistent regen which emulates downshifting in the twisties. I suppose after such missions it will take a few days of driving like an old man in ECON for the car to readjust the EV range numbers to “geriatric”!
     
  19. 4sallypat

    4sallypat Active Member

    Ha haha !
    Yes driving like an old man in ECON mode is the best way to maximize your EV charge per mile!
     
  20. To be fair, I have about 7 months to go as a sexy generian!
     

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