The Hydrogen Con

Discussion in 'Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles' started by 101101, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Hydrogen is never green that's way to expensive its always blue or grey and is just Enron and Diesel Gate part II. Its toxic natural gas in disguise. Its another rent seeking long tail pipe scam that has to be stopped. Saw Toyota get caught trying to foist it Long Beach. Its will be connected to a bunch of nonsense. What we need to start doing is converting compressed natural gas plants and equipment to air batteries. You'll note that the scammy natural gas industry just threw away all that energy from liquifaction which could have turned a turbine the other way for gasification to recapture some of the energy but their goal except in the case of coops owning where they couldn't get away with it was to overcharge at every possible point and then not underground lines and continue to do Enron style rolling black outs or PG&E gas outs and then use that as an excuse to raise prices so that in CA because of the natural gas scam we pay 4x what they pay in Kentucky and 21x what new battery backed solar costs. And then when their is a fire same fraud involved insurance companies raised home owners rates 40% in one year but still continue to insure and buy the stock of these fraudulent natural gas companies. There has never been a dirtier enterprise in the history of the world than natural gas. But hydrogen is actually worse. Converting natural gas into hydrogen to hide that its is super dirty natural gas takes 2x the energy the hydrogen will hold so 2x the moronic natural gas. Its more expensive yet to do true green hydrogen is bulky they never tell you it takes 3x the liquid volume of gasoline per unit of weight even if it has 3x the energy density but of course the apparatus to contain or even transfer it is very bulk with bunches of moving parts that are failure prone and dangerous. And as we've learned the only reason they wanted to sequester was to pump out more natural gas. But natural gas caused the last collapse because its all economically stranded even when hyper subsidized and it just collapsed again right before covid (covid has acted as cover to keep its collapse out of the headlines)- so selling insurance on the bad debt that covers these bad assets (so called derivatives)to public pensions and mutual funds and insurance companies is beyond idiotic it is ultra moronic ponzi scheme kicking of the can down the road. Tarrifs on solar don't help either. The world simply doesn't need this crap.

    Singapore just ordered 22 billion worth of solar cells and batteries to cover 20% of its power at 2 billion a year to be sent of a 3600km under sea cable from Australia- you never see petrol projects that large and you won't see big petrol projects anymore because the gig is up fossil fuels are dead in the water permanently.
  2. marshall

    marshall Active Member

    Well at least in California, they can say they have moved their pollution from their state to another state, providing they get the hydrogen gas out-of-state.
  3. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Yes they are saying exactly that but CA needs to tell them with better rules that their hydrogen scam if it adds atmospheric contaminents any where is banned. The bs in particular about sending hydrogen in the same pipe as 'natural' gas needs to be barred for the obvious diesel gate type scam it is.
    These pipelines must be dismantled. We should be jailing fossil fuel criminals not letting them bribe politicians to create law as crime.

    We know their anti justice take on justice. Justice for them is not about equity and equality it is about the righteousness of inequity and in the great chain of being because of their money establishing their superiority they insist they have a given right to exploit others and anything else is the meaning of injustice. Its the problem of idiots given power and money and how to disarm them so they can't insist on and forcing evil.
  4. SouthernDude

    SouthernDude Active Member

    Hydrogen fuel cells are not a scam. They work and the technology is better suited to decarbonizing commercial jets, long distance freight trucks, those really large container ships, and several other industries (e.g. like timber harvesting). Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis, which doesn't involve natural gas, so no need to freak over that.

    Also, it's possible to store hydrogen long term. This is good for areas that don't have stable electric grids or for islands that may not be able to install enough generation capacity to effectively charge large ships or commercial jets. Stored hydrogen can also be used in addition to pumped hydro for long term energy storage on the grid - something that conventional chemical batteries can't really do (aside from flow batteries maybe).

    There's no real reason to hate on hydrogen fuel cells because they aren't necessarily the best application for light duty vehicles.
  5. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    The hydrogen fuel cell tech has worked for something like 80 years (if I recall.) It was used in the moon missions. Its tried and true but very limited. Metalic solid hydrogen may improve rocketry greatly one day. True green hydrogen will get used in rocketry even if just a component in doing green methox.

    But what they are lying about and what makes it a total fraud and scam is they want to do nothing but supremely dirty and wastful and ultra expensive GREY hydrogen derrived from a huge permanent spike in NG use and claim they will go blue (which is still NG and totally sucks) or green a million years from now after they have blown the CO2 limits with all their bs about oligarchs can't aford it. In short pure fraud and criminality.

    What they are proposing isn't green its ultra dirty and ultral expensive, ultra inefficient (can't possibly compete even with its current rape of the treasury) and its just a way of trying to kick the can on the NG ponzi down the road to live another day. Its dumber than clean coal. And the idea that one state would accept exporting the reforming externalities like CO2 and mercury into another state on technicalities is beyond idiotic- that will never be an accepted practice- oh just do the reforming in dumb red states that don't know any better(?)- no the CO2 is cummulative, persistent and global.

    And it is not better for trucking or for anything else. And it is not easy or inexpensive to store. And there is no surplus green (that is another dumb fossil fuel con if FF midday production is above zero- green demands exclusive prioritized use) there are only fossil fuel contracts that need to be voided and fossil fuels that need to stay permanently in the ground. Liquid air batteries are a better option if you don't want to use current batteries. Musk was right- fool cells. Gates is simply lying (a career long pattern) to protect the NG ponzi which he is quite apparently caught up it. It so laughable to have him say the world or growth can't afford actual green- its him and his friends like Buffet and Hillary that can't afford it, but the world cannot afford anything but ending their theiving rent seeking. We have to start to classify the fossil fuel industry as a criminal conspiracy and as organized crime- is there a better way of going about ridding the world of its corruption? What is this hydrogen con but a conspiracy to defraud the public. What was Enron? 911? Diesel Gate? The fossil fuel derivatives collapse of 07? On and on it goes. Hydrogen is more bridge fuel scam. If it is a liquid fuel that requires transport by pipe or truck or ship we don't need it and have to get rid of it as fast as humanly possible- its obsolete and a con.
    We should be doing thorium for sure anything but NG, all things considered especially the ultra dumb politics and culture of it even coal and oil are better than NG.
    NG is a grandma in a mobile home paying $600 a month to keep the lights cutting in to her food while everything burns. NG represents possibly the dumbest and most beligerant set of criminals in the history of the world. Everything that happens is supposed to be a excuse for them to raise prices based on extortion over an obsolete product the world no longer needs. The only parallel I can think of is the American Civil War South with their oppression is justice right to exploit credo. Maybe I have it wrong but that is what it looks like. Democracy is not about lying to and fooling enough people or rigging votes to get what you want. We arrest people who undermine society that way. It seems what were missing beyond a non bribery (sponsored) based media (and resultant law as crime captured legislature) is a working legal and criminal justice system- we've stopped addressing white collar crime. But maybe I have this all wrong?
  6. SouthernDude

    SouthernDude Active Member

    Yes. You have all this wrong. Goodness.

    First and foremost, the goal for hydrogen production is to get it from electrolysis. This is happening, people are working on it, and this method makes more sense in the supply chain of delivering fuel anyways. Your argument against hydrogen is literally no different than people claiming that battery powered cars are really just as bad as oil because coal produces electricity. Virtually everyone in the hydrogen industry wants hydrogen from electrolysis and there are methods of electrolysis that are more efficient than the conventional production from natural gas. To be perfectly frank, your argument here is a non-point. I don't care how much you dislike the technology, there's no point to endlessly slander anyone who likes or support it - especially when the justification for the slander is baseless.

    No, the idea of surplus renewable energy is not some fossil fuel scam. Where else do you think the energy for battery storage (or liquid air battery storage) comes from?

    Secondly, there isn't some natural gas ponzi scheme oligarchy in the USA or any Western nation for that matter. Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, Warren Buffet, plus whoever else you want to slander are not a part of some secrete ploy to indefinitely support natural gas. Shale gas isn't some fluke scam. The fracking process made gas several times cheaper than coal and modern gas turbines are nearly twice as efficient as conventional coal turbines. This means that Natural gas is significantly cheaper than coal. Just look at Lazard's LCOE reports to see what I mean. Natural gas replaced a huge amount of coal in the US this past decade because of this. This isn't rent seeking and natural gas doesn't rent seek any more than any other energy source (in fact, it probably rent seeks the least out of all the energy sources). The fossil fuel industry isn't some criminal enterprise. That is a delusional assertion. Wind and solar didn't start getting really cheap until the later part of the last decade and battery powered car technology didn't really materialize in its modern form until about 10 years ago. Before that, the only source of energy that could support the modern world was fossil fuels. Sure nuclear could have a larger share, but cost overruns and regulations passed by environmentalists effectively killed the industry. Coal is certainly in massive decline, but it's way too soon to say that any fossil fuels are obsolete products.

    At this point, I get the impression that you are willing to arrest anyone who works in the fossil fuel industry and put them in jail, which is utterly insane by the way.

    >Enron, 911,Dieselgate, American Civil War

    None of these things are directly connected to natural gas in any meaningful way. This kind of crap is why I joke that you are a schizoid. You go on about how lying and fooling people is some type of evil crime against democracy, but then go on and on with these weird conspiracy theory rants. Geez. The lack of self awareness. Just putting that out there.

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