LEAF Battery capacity loss and battery life

Discussion in 'LEAF' started by jim, Dec 14, 2017.

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  1. Kenneth Bokor

    Kenneth Bokor Active Member

    Thanks good info, yes I'd like to see more real data too so with the lack of it, I would default to a positive conclusion. The link sheds some light, but the sample size of 32 vehicles is negligible. Also, this does not show how the cars were driven (very hard, lots of fast charging, climate areas, etc.). So it's basically meaningless in the big picture.

    Rather than Nissan having to prove and provide positive data, the onus is on the so called majority to provide the negative data. Innocent before guilty, is that not how democracy operate?
     
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  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's a fair point. Still, I think that if the e-Golf was experiencing the same rate of premature aging that the Leaf is, that we would have seen some complaints about it.

    I don't follow news of the Leaf that closely. Have they already switched to the LG Chem cells?

    I also "failed to highlight" what is being called "Rapidgate", which is newer Leafs reportedly showing even faster fade that older ones. Nissan claimed that was just a calibration problem, but those of us who have been EV fans for years remember very well that Nissan's first reaction to a surprisingly frequent complaint about premature battery fading was to claim it was just a calibration problem. That turned out to be a lie.

    Kenneth, I appreciate that you are a staunch supporter of Nissan and the Leaf, but you are literally the only person I've seen trying to claim that this problem isn't widespread. If it wasn't widespread, then it wouldn't be seen as a serious problem. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's an outlier opinion. Leaf forums are chock full of reports of premature battery fading. Yes, we see some reports of people with no premature fade at all, but those are certainly not the majority of comments on the subject.

    That reads like an apologia straight from a Nissan press release. All Nissan has to do is to define a high rate of capacity loss as "normal" to avoid having to replace a significant percentage of battery packs under warranty. And that is exactly what is happening; just note all the Leaf owners who report that they took their car in for service to complain about premature fading, inquiring about replacement under warranty, and were told by a Nissan service department that such fading was "normal"!

    It's not like there is some government regulatory agency with oversight of battery pack fading. The NHTSA is concerned about safety issues in cars, but this isn't a safety issue.

    Also, the problem with premature battery fading is common and well documented. The data is there for anyone who wants to look at it:

    [​IMG]

    (Sorry for the small size of the graphic; viewing a larger size requires registering at that forum.)

    We can argue till doomsday about what does or doesn't constitute "premature" battery capacity loss. But to claim the problem is being seen by 1% or less of Leaf owners, is denying reality pretty strongly. One only has to look at the chart above to see that there is a startling range of capacity loss over the same distance driven. And that's the problem: That there's no consistency to the amount of capacity loss in the Leaf battery. The numbers are all over the place, unlike what we see with other EVs. There's no "bright line" between "normal" loss and "premature loss of capacity", but we can clearly see that a significant group of Leafs -- not merely 1% -- are experiencing premature loss as compared to the norm.

    If you really want to learn about the problem, then you can read some or all of the 7941 (!) posts to the "Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs" thread at the My Nissan Leaf forum. Needless to say, that's a very popular thread; one does not normally see thousands of posts about a single subject at the My Nissan Leaf forum!

    Yes, and it would be interesting to know what percentage of Leafs have had battery pack replacements under warranty. But Nissan isn't going to give us that figure, now are they? Nissan's response to customer complaints was first to deny it's a real problem, then to dismiss it as a few outliers, then to belittle the problem and pretend it's not important. If we want info on how widespread the problem actually is, then we have to look to real-world reports from actual Leaf owners.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  4. Kenneth Bokor

    Kenneth Bokor Active Member

    Hi all good points and appreciate the info and data shown. I'm too not going to debate this back and forth as this thread will never end then. Yes I am a supporter trying to look at this as objectively as possible. 2011-2012 data is not relevant currently so I would not even respond to that.

    Listen, I'm not stating Nissan is blameless for anything and we all know auto manufacturers are out to make money - period. They can strattle the line of legalities versus regulatory requirements and often blur those lines for profit.

    The graphic is of course interesting, but I can't make out the sample size. It would be helpful to understand that. Yes of course Nissan is not going to openly tell folks how many warranty claims they had against the packs.

    My whole point of this is that I still don't believe this "issue" and the statement of premature battery capacity loss applies to the majority of Leafs out there. As a consumer, I know that purchasing the new Leaf (my first BEV ever), I can take comfort in knowing there is a warranty and if my pack fails as you state, then I will get it fixed by Nissan. 8-years to drop 33% is fine in my books. Yes it's not Tesla record-setting reliability, but then again I'm not paying 2-5 times the pricing either. For what I paid for my 2018 Leaf, I could have got 2 of them versus the cheapest Telsa available today - Model 3 LR.

    I'm supportive of BEV adoption and to provide a general blanket statement saying that the Leaf as a whole suffers from premature capacity loss is wrong and misleading. This will turn off prospective EV adopters who can't afford a Telsa or Bolt but want to get into BEV ownership. The Leaf ain't perfect but for anyone to slap a negative title on the Leaf as a whole is absolutely wrong in doing so.

    Forums are primarily made up of folks who just want to bash something and scream loud. The vast majority of owners don't get info forums, they just drive their cars and enjoy.
     
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  5. marshall

    marshall Well-Known Member

    I have to agree that the sample sizes are too small. On top of that, the reported samples may be more anecdotal with folks with issues more likely to voice their displeasure. However, these cars still haven't reached the ten and fifteen year mark.

    Like I said, Nissan isn't doing themselves any favors by not sharing any data they have collected.

    Personally, my gut feeling is that a large, liquid cooled battery is more likely to go the distance.
     
    Yanni likes this.
  6. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I think we have plenty of real-world evidence, across the entire market of plug-in EVs, that this is the case. No "gut feeling" needed. :)

     
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  8. Kenneth Bokor

    Kenneth Bokor Active Member

    100% agree, anything active thermally managed, especially with liquid coolants will prevail. They just cost a bit more.
     
  9. jim

    jim Active Member

    Ken there is a lot of data about the poor LEAF battery on line. I has a 2011 and 2013 and both were terrible. The lizard is just a slight chemistry change. Here is one of the best results tests and data by quick charge and former LEAF owner Tony Williams. https://insideevs.com/all-the-results-from-the-largest-independent-test-of-nissan-leafs-with-lost-capacity-not-instrument-failure/
     
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  10. BAllred

    BAllred New Member

    It definitely will, but the question becomes “at what price is the active TMS a value-add?”

    If a TMS on the 40kwh pack would have cost an additional $5k but would only slow degradation by 10%, would it be worth it? This is a price-point EV with some cut corners, but until we have a statistically significant data sample it’s tough to infer what side of the value equation we’re on.
     
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  11. jim

    jim Active Member

    The cost is less than $1,000 and the battery will last 10x longer. Not creating waste in the world is worth it. Not having your range drop by 10% or more a year is worth it. A Tesla loses less than 1% capacity a year. Very similar with Chevy Volt,Bolt,SPARK EV, Ford Focus EV, and many others.
     
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  13. BAllred

    BAllred New Member

    Link?
     
  14. Kenneth Bokor

    Kenneth Bokor Active Member

    Thanks for this info, I have seen this before. A 2012 test with older packs. Still not conclusive that the majority will suffer great loss.

    My point is maybe if someone is looking at a used Leaf, specifically the model years that had more reported issues than other years, we may steer someone away from that choice. However that depends on their use case.

    My view point is still unchanged, its not fair to lump all the Leafs into the premature failure bucket. We won't have data for at least a couple of years on the 2018's but with an 8-year 100,000 mile (160,000km) warranty, most people won't care if it looses 5% a year. Most of the new EV adopters are looking for a BEV for their daily use, an average of 25-40 miles per day. Leaf well fills this use case and even with DCFCing will still do long trips. Look at the UK EV-ers driving Leafs up and down from top of Scotland to south of London all the time.
     
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  15. loomis2

    loomis2 Well-Known Member

    You just need to answer one question to know if you will have battery issues: Do you live in a very hot climate? If you live in Arizona or southern Florida then you may have issues. If you live in Ohio you will be fine.
     
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  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    But an active TMS isn't merely good for keeping the battery from premature degradation... altho I think that should be sufficient!

    One other problem with the Leaf not having an active TMS is... Well, read the report from a Leaf driver in the UK for yourself:

    On a recent quick two day trip from Scotland to Cheltenham and back I managed to get south without any battery overheating problems, possibly because traffic was heavy. Coming back the next evening, with the outside temp at 18C, I was running into ten bars, just short of red, after a mere two rapid charges, and starting to get seriously concerned if I could get home.
    The outside temp dropped slowly as I drove North. I reduced speed down to 60 mph, and by midnight it was about 8C outside. The car never got into the red, but I was getting very nervous.
    No charger failures at all, but I would be concerned about repeating this journey in July or August.
    (source)

    And note that 18°C is only 64°F.

     
  17. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Much as I think it's well worth the cost for all highway-capable BEV passenger cars to have an active TMS, this is surely an exaggeration. Even if, for the sake of argument, we were to stipulate the Leaf's battery can only be expected to last 4 years (and I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of them last longer than that), you're suggesting other BEVs' battery packs will last 40 years of average driving before dropping to 80% of original capacity. That's certainly an exaggeration. Even lasting 5x longer is quite likely an overstatement.

    Now, if you had claimed only 2x-3x longer, then IMHO you would at least have come close to having a reasonable argument.

     
  18. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's just as much an overstatement as several other recent comments here. You will have less of a chance of premature battery fading if you live in Ohio -- or even better, in the UK, where it hardly ever gets really hot -- but it's still a very real possibility.

     
  19. Yanni

    Yanni Member

    Well, I'm in the market for a used LEAF for one of my kids and I am a little uncomfortable not having clear info on the condition of the battery, or even WHICH specific battery is in a particular vehicle.

    BUT I learned something new today which is another piece of info that will help alleviate our concerns as we move forward with this used-car search.

    Anyone can call the Nissan LEAF customer service number 877-644-2738 and press 1 for english and then 4 for *some other choice* and ask questions about a particular car (YOU MUST HAVE THE VIN!).

    For example, the c.service person can tell you what generation and how many kWh the current battery has in that particular vehicle. If it’s the original battery, they’ll know. If it’s an older car and has had the battery replaced through a warranty issue, they’ll know because it would have had to been done at a dealer.

    So now as we conduct this used-car search, if he finds a car he likes, we know that (M-F 8am – 8pm EST) we can call and get info on exactly the battery in that particular car. He only wants the new chemistry, and a 30 kWh battery would be great too (as they only degrade…so why not start big?).

    As far as I have been able to determine, used car batteries are either Generation 1 or 2, and beyond that, they are either 24kWh or 30 kWh.

    Hope this helps someone else as well.
    Any other insight into battery "health" or accurate reports that are easy to obtain would be most appreciated.
     
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  20. Paul K

    Paul K Active Member

    I am a bit of an outlier on this but as a person who services and repairs things from my standpoint the simplest technology that can do the job reliably is the best solution. Whether an ICE or EV all today's vehicles have complex electronic control systems. A chip fails or capacitor goes off value past a certain point and the whole system comes crashing down like a house of cards. A well maintained functioning vehicle can be crippled by such failures and written off if no one knows how to repair it or a replacement module is not available. So from my standpoint if your situation doesn't require regular fast charging (which seems to be the heat culprit) then you're better off without it as there's one less system to fail. BTW my 2018 Leaf is awesome and there are noticeable improvements over the 2016 I traded in. Not worried about tms at all. Sorry PMPU.
     
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  21. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I, too, mourn the days when a "shade tree mechanic" could fix any car, with the proper maintenance manual, the proper set of tools, and sufficient determination. Sady, that went the way of the dodo bird when computers in cars started requiring auto service/repair shops to start hooking the car up to a diagnostic computer. :(

    I'm glad you're enjoying your Leaf! :) Obviously it works for many, otherwise there wouldn't be so many sold. So long as you've made an informed buying choice -- and clearly you have -- then nobody has the right to tell you that you made the "wrong" choice. Only you can decide what's best for you.

     
  22. 30kWh_Leaf

    30kWh_Leaf New Member

    On January 2nd, I went to my nearest Nissan dealer to talk about buying the 2018 40kWh Leaf. "Go Everywhere" vehicle and 80% charge in 40 minutes? I don't mind that. Bought one and now regret it, The car itself is great, but, I explained to the sales person that I wanted the vehicle to drive 650 miles in a day as I have a friend in southern France. There was no mention of the charge throttling because the battery gets hot with consecutive rapid charges.

    I complained in writing to Nissan and suggested that when the next Leaf comes out with battery temperature management, I'd like one and just pay the difference between the full cost of mine and the new one. I was told by Nissan GB that they have no knowledge of any upcoming vehicles.

    I have subsequently complained to the Advertising Standards Authority and their ruling comes out on the 10th. There are other customer related laws that are relevant and I will contact Nissan GB again when the 2019 Leaf is announced.

    The car itself is great but #rapidgate ruins it for me as I specifically bought the car so that I could do longer journies more easily. At present, longer journies would take less time in the 30kWh Tekna I had. In January, the sales staff were also not aware of the battery charging "design feature."
     
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  23. Thanks for sharing this with us. Please let us know how the ruling goes.

    Since it originally launched, Nissan has been pretty bad at managing expectations with this car. That it throttles charging speed back on successive recharges is really not great and customers need to know this info up front.
     

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