General motors, Volkswagen to stop production of hybrid vehicles

Discussion in 'General' started by interestedinEV, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

  2. electriceddy

    electriceddy Well-Known Member

    Won't miss the Hybrid Jetta , Touareg or the Volt , way too complicated and expensive drive system for me.
    The writing on this post is definitely clearer :)
     
  3. Bugblndr

    Bugblndr New Member

    I love my 2015 Ford Cmax. 152,000 kms and no work other than tire rotation and oil changes every 20,000 kms or so. That said, it will be demoted to winter driving duties for my wife and used when we need more space or a long distance hauler. I get my Kona next week.

    There still is a good market for hybrids IMO. My Kona doesnt fit 100% of our needs. I can't see waiting an hour at a DC charger when I could fill up with gas and be back on the road in less than 5 minutes.
     
    electriceddy likes this.
  4. electriceddy

    electriceddy Well-Known Member

    Confirmed also with this:
    https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124528_the-fastest-porsche-suv-ever-is-a-plug-in-hybrid
     
    Bugblndr likes this.
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Interesting that GM and VW have decided to go "all in" on BEVs, as opposed to hedging their bets with plug-in hybrids. But as the article linked in the OP says, China is a major market for EVs -- likely the biggest, both now and in the future -- so it makes sense not to waste money developing hybrids for that market.

    As far as what Toyota is doing... well, I just have to shake my head. To quote Bugs Bunny, what a bunch of maroons! If they're actually trying to lose their position as the leading auto maker worldwide, then they could hardly find a better business strategy.

     
  6. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    They’re just following the Japanese master plan (2030 Innovative
    Technology Plan
    ).

    EV for short range only, hybrid for passenger cars, fuel cell for premium cars and heavy vehicles.

    D96DD7DD-AAFE-4CBB-9989-3387DFE26D34.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 6:00 AM
    interestedinEV likes this.
  7. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    Latest chart shows by 2050 Toyota plan to be 10% EV, 10% fuel cell, 40% plug in hybrid, 40% hybrid. What a pack of maroons. They think they’re already at the peak rate of the electrification S curve today.

    4DA4AAF1-4EC6-4BA2-8A72-F2F6CC3DDEB8.png
     
  8. Bender

    Bender Member

    Hybrids are very efficient and can be less costly to fuel than BEV (even at lower than average electric rates, like 0.12 locally, it's barely cheaper to charge at home, and much higher to charge with Electrify America or Chargepoint than just using gas).
    I don't see them going away anytime soon.
     
  9. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Costs are relative. Today you may be right. But as renewable energy becomes more prevalent, cost of electricity generation will drop, more competition will drop costs and crude oil costs/natural gas costs are relative. A war in the middle east can push up gas prices significantly. I see the cost of a BEV operation dropping, not as much a hybrid. I could be wrong. I am sure GM and VW have made an economic analysis before they made that decision. That does not mean to say their analysis is right and Toyota wrong. Only time will tell. However, I am going to guess hybrids will be sold say even 5 years from now and BEVs will coexist with Hybrids at least for the next few years but there will shift to BEVs. Again, this my guess and I have been known to wrong.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Do you have a link to the Toyota presentation?

    The reason I ask is it looks like something I'd seen several years ago. The BMW i3 suggests after 2013-2014. Then there is the obvious omission of a Tesla.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Here is an article I found
    http://www.toyota.com.cn/innovation/environmental_technology/strategy_environmental_tech.html


    Toyota's Strategy for Environmental Technologies
    Toyota takes measures in environmental issues surrounding vehicles
    Due to the global development of the industry and technology in the 20th century, increased production of vehicles and the growing population resulted in massive consumption of fossil fuels. Today we face three challenges regarding environmental and energy issues, which are finding an alternative energy source as opposed to oil, reducing CO2 emissions, and preventing air pollution.

    Although the demand for oil alternatives, such as gas fuels, electricity, and hydrogen may grow, each alternative energy source has its disadvantages. Oil is currently the main source of automotive fuel, but further research and development of alternative energy in the future may bring change. Various powertrains, such as those found in Plug in Hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles, will be required in order to use diversified types of fuels.

    At Toyota, we will continue to develop various vehicles, along with our emphasis of conventional vehicles and hybrid vehicles as fundamental core technology while pursuing further advancement. Based on these core technologies, Toyota will develop next-generation vehicles utilizing alternative fuels such as gas fuel, electricity and hydrogen.

    Characteristics of Oil Alternative Fuels
    Electricity, hydrogen, biodiesel and natural gas are good alternatives for fossil fuel, but each source has their own disadvantages. The left figure shows compares the energy density of each alternative
    fuel.

    Even with the latest lithium ion battery technology, only 1/50 of the energy required by gasoline is used. Although powering a motor with electricity is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine, liquid fuels such as gasoline are still advantageous because of their high volume in energy density. The figure below shows the difference in energy density between electricity and gasoline but does not
    indicate correlation in cruising range.

    The cost of batteries also poses a major challenge.
    In an effort to attain the 2030 Innovative
    Technology Plan issued by Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, we have barely
    reached the status to be at a competitive level with gasoline powered vehicles.

    [​IMG]

    Toyota takes measures in environmental issues surrounding vehicles
    For more improvements in efficiency, Toyota proactively manages powertrain efficiency, reduces vehicle load, and controls energy management by integration of fuel-saving technologies such as charge control, idling stop etc..

    [​IMG]

    In Pursuit of the Ultimate Eco-car
    Toyota has a long history of continuous improvement when it comes to conventional engines, including lean-burn gasoline engines, direct injection gasoline engines and common rail direct-injection diesel engines, as well as engines modified to use alternative fuels, such as compressed natural gas (CNG) or electricity (for Electric Vehicle). In December 2002, we launched limited sales of the Toyota FCHV, a Fuel Cell Vehicle that runs on high-pressure hydrogen.

    Engineers may disagree about which fuel or car propulsion system is best, but they do agree that hybrid technology is the core for eco-car development. We develop these key technologies in-house to reduce costs and rapidly commercialize their application.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Thevenin

    Thevenin Member

    To be quite clear, GM and VW haven't actually abandoned plug-ins. A lot of journalists don't differentiate between hybrids and PHEVs. At least for the near future, we should expect to see more plug-in hybrids.

    From the WSJ:
    GM plans to launch 20 fully electric vehicles world-wide in the next four years, including plug-in models in the U.S. for the Chevy and Cadillac brands. Volkswagen also has committed billions to producing more battery-powered models, including introducing a small plug-in SUV in the U.S. next year and an electric version of its minibus around 2022.

    GM has long said there would be no successor to the Volt, but they've been reusing the Voltec drivetrain in China. The Cadillac CT6 PHEV sedan and the 2020 Buick Velite 6 station wagon are both Voltec offspring that apparently we can't have in America because we don't deserve nice things.

    In terms of supply chains, PHEVs can be built alongside EVs -- they use the same batteries, inverters, and motors, while mild hybrids do not. It's true that EVs tend to cannibalize PHEV sales (and for good reason) in the same way luxury sales cannibalize economy sales, but I expect PHEVs to be an important part of the lineup due to their cost and appeal in middle-America.
     
  13. electriceddy

    electriceddy Well-Known Member

    Toyota subsidiary to build new hybrid battery plant to produce 100,000 batteries/year:
    https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/08/20190811-peve.html
     

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