Range under tow load will undermine ICE truck makers

Discussion in 'General' started by 101101, Dec 8, 2019.

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  1. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Tesla set an example where range in its semi under full load decreases from 620 empty to 500 miles under full load. That is a 20% reduction in range. But ICE reduces 50% on top of its already horrible comparative efficiency. Top Cybertruck being made out of the same components as the Tesla semi will quite plausibly also reduce range under full load by a factor of 20% or from 500 miles to 400 miles where its closest competitor the Ford Raptor is at about 288 miles.

    But Tesla has yet to add recuperative braking, PV and better aero to its trailers. Right now about half the weight of the Tesla semi tractor is likely batteries and motors or power train. But the power density will continue to increase at about 15% per year up through 2050 in lithium even as lithium its theoretical limit has about half the power density gasoline. Even so in less than 5 years range on lithium alone without adjustments to trailer (recuperative braking, pv cells, aero, lighter construction materials like 30x) will match the farthest running class 8s but with the other enhancement exceed them. The cost per mile for he semi is already half what it is for diesels and it will continue to drop.

    Its also a lot more convenient to have some charge stations than having to rely on having fuel delivered to a yard fuel station a business must pay to maintain. Having roof top batteries and PV at a yard is even better in terms of savings.

    The Cybertruck seems to herald this difference right now. Raptor will only haul about less than half the total weight and will need to refuel at 288 miles vice 400 miles and at a rate of 8mpg vs about 67mpg under full load.- and again this is where Cybertruck is carrying 2.15x as much. You'd have to make 2.15 trips in the Raptor to carry the same amount. The Cybertruck unloaded is about 83 eMPG and 67 eMPG (guesses) so under full load of 17500lbs (vs Raptore 8150lbs) its more efficient than a Prius by a huge amount. To really hammer this home, a fully loaded Tesla semi will carry 10x what a fully loaded Raptor does for half for 1/4 cost per mile or half the cost per mile of an empty Raptor and it will go 212 miles more before needing a quick 30 min recharge- its 40x more efficient than a Raptor under load- even the Cybertruck is like 18x more efficient and takes 2.15x the load 38% further .

    And the Raptor lacks some convenience in that it can't refuel at home and will start trips requiring a trip to the gas station and may well end trips requiring a trip to a service station- not necessarily the case with the Cybertruck. Of course superchargers aren't as prevalent and need some modifications. But a mega charger possibly the (+) in 250v+ for Cybertruck could likely charge a Cybertruck to full in 12 minutes.
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Patience my friend. Other than the ICE vehicles, the EVs in this class are not for sale.

    We're dealing with "Power Point Engineering" which often includes attempts to intimidate or inflate performance (aka., see i-Pace and Etron.) When actual hardware shows up, owner testing tells the tale.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  4. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    So you’re predicting the range of a truck that doesn’t yet exist, by comparing it to the range of another truck that doesn’t yet exist.

    I can’t believe I’m not wowed by this.

    When the theoretical specs become real world, I’ll be interested. Why do I feel I will be waiting about 15 years for this fantasy to come true?
     
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  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    We EV enthusiasts need to be honest about the limited towing ability available with today's EV tech. A battery pack of 100 or even 150 kWh has only the energy contained in a few gallons of gasoline. BEV makers go to great lengths to design their cars for high energy efficiency, including light weigh and low aero drag, in order to maximize the potential of that limited amount of energy available for pushing the car down the road.

    But none of that helps when towing. A large trailer with a cross-section (frontal area) much larger than the towing vehicle cannot, generally speaking, have its aero drag reduced in any significant way. Even extreme streamlining, using a long "boat tail" on the trailer, something like the rear end of the Aptera, would likely only reduce drag by 20% or so.

    Similarly, there's not much manufacturers can affordably do to reduce the weight of a large trailer. Weight may not be of much importance when traveling on level ground at a stead speed -- and most Interstate travel is at a steady speed. But if you start going up and down hills, or worse, up a mountain highway, then that is gonna cut into range quite a bit.

    So, let's be honest: Towing large trailers long distances isn't going to be something BEVs, in the current state of the art, do well. But isn't that a pretty small market segment? Even those who have horse trailers, or large fishing boats or speedboats, likely aren't towing those trailers for hours on the highway. Sure, there will be exceptions. But don't most boat owners take their boats to a local lake, rather than hauling them hundreds of miles to a lake far away?

    For the present, until BEV battery packs can store a lot more energy, towing large trailers for long distances, at highway speed, will be beyond the capability of BEVs such as the Cybertruck and other BEV pickups. That's one place where a PHEV really would be better.

    Similarly, the discussions we've seen recently about 5th wheel hookups and gooseneck trailers used with the Cybertruck are mostly a waste of time. If you're hauling a trailer that large for long distances, then a BEV pickup is not going to be your go-to vehicle. Let's not pretend that BEV pickups can fully compete with gas-powered and diesel pickups for such heavy hauling chores. That will come in time, but not today, tomorrow, or next year.

    Now, please note that my remarks here are confined to the use case for non-commercial vehicles; privately owned cars and light trucks such as pickups. I'm not addressing the economic case for the Tesla Semi Truck and other BEV heavy trucks. The cost/benefit equation is far different for commercial fleets, and there may well be an advantageous economic case to be made for BEV heavy trucks. That has yet to be proven, but it's only a matter of time before it is. Even if the Tesla Semi Truck turns out to be more costly per mile on an annual basis than a diesel semi tractor, it won't be many years before somebody starts building a BEV semi tractor which does have a lower cost per mile.

    The EV revolution still has a long way to go before gasmobiles and diesel trucks are fully obsolete, but it advances every year! Up the EV revolution!

     
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  6. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Not at all a small market in my world...I own boats and snowmobiles. And I live in a place that has lousy lakes and non existent snowmobiling. So I tow somewhere between 500 and 1500 miles one way and I take my boat and snowmobiles on week long vacations several times a year far from home. I drive from Indiana to the wilderness of U.P. Michigan, and sometimes to Wyoming. This is pretty common practice in the circle I tend to run with in the powersports world. Not to mention those who own Travel trailers and go camping all over the country. ATV and side-by-side and Motocross enthusiasts, Race car owners who tow their cars all over the country to different race tracks to compete, horse owners who travel all over the country competing in horse jumping and shows, trade show reps hauling cargo trailers of wares to every major convention center in the US...

    As foreign as the concept likely sounds to most EV enthusiasts who try to use no gasoline or PHEV/hybrid owners trying to eke every last mile out of a drop of gasoline, there is no doubt that long distance gas guzzling recreational and business towing with full size pickups and Suburbans hauling gas guzzling motorized toys is actually a very substantial market in the US...and it helps drive the entire economy as it’s mostly high income people with a lot of disposable cash to burn...

    And I agree fully with your assessment that today’s battery tech is not even remotely close to being capable of handling such duties. It simply takes too much energy to overcome the lack of aerodynamics of towing large trailers at high speeds. It will certainly be nice if it can be overcome someday with technology improvements. But even my earlier 15 year guesstimate I believe is extremely optimistic...
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  8. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone in their right mind doubts that there are people who, like you, do a lot of long-distance towing of sizable or large trailers every year. The question is just how big a market segment "the circle [you] tend to run with" comprises.

    ...says Alexander Edwards president of automotive research and consulting firm Strategic Vision, which conducts an in-depth, annual, 250,000-person, psychographic new vehicle owners’ survey.

    Truck owners might protest that they are slightly less likely than owners of other categories to use their vehicle as primary transport (83% vs. 95%), limiting the miles and gallons. And they might also protest that trucks provide capabilities that other vehicles lack. But, as it turns out, a significant portion of truck owners never use their trucks for these capabilities. According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible
    raison d’être—once a year or less.

    Source: https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume
     
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  9. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Cybertruck is going to have a 200kwh battery and its 33.7 kwh per gallon of gas. Electric power train is about 7x more efficient so with 200kwh in top Cybertruck (Raptor price equivalent Cybertruck) that is 5.93 gallons of gas multiplied by 7x greater efficiency (strange because I thought ICE ran at about 30% efficiency power train wise) and you get the equivalent of a 41.72 gallon gas tank on the Cybertruck vs the 36 gallon tank on Raptor. But given that under load the Cyber will only drop 20% (Semi is an example of this but Cyber is made from the same tech and many of the same components) and ICE drops 50% Cybertruck goes about 38% further before needing to pull over while hauling 2.15x as much. I won't argue that aero on trailer matters but let us not exaggerate. You can get aero traliers. The Cybertruck and the Tesla Semi in terms of the ration of the payload to tractor/truck weigh to haul work about to about the same ratio. The Cybertruck underload cost almost nothing to run vs the Raptor's huge gas bill for even a 400 mile run- to haul 400 miles a Cybertruck load in a Raptor is about $1 a mile at CA rates! In a cybertruck the whole run will cost somewhere between $2 and $50 depending on how you get your electricity but likely around $18-$23 at total rip utility rates. There is pretty much nothing the Cybertruck won't be better at than the Raptor (even scenarios where it is better for charge rate- certainly on charge convenience) Tesla is giving a hard core smack down to trucking more than it ever gave to cars. Nikola is an utter joke. The hit to trucking is coming in a couple years. People are going to want to pull everything in a Cybertruck and ditching F150-350 where every possible.

    Its delusion to think that electric powertrains aren't superior for every kind of hauling. There is a reason Ford is going to electric trucks and doing stunts (even if slightly misleading) about million lbs towing for its electrics vs what its ICE is rated for in marketing speak in people's minds- but accurately rated for. Lets go back to the example of the locomotive. The DOE commissioned in 2009 an Eastern railroad to strip the Diesel sack off a standard full sized locomotive and replace that stack with batteries so that would be the standard electric traction trucks and batteries. Immediately that's a 3x power savings. They put recuperative on the locomotive brakes for another 15% gain (needs to be on all the rail cars.) They used old car battery or marine cycle lead acid batteries- looked just like a regular locomotive same power or more but something like 4x better range. That train would run for 24 hrs on a charge and only needed with that old tech only took 2hrs to charge. Standard trains run for 6hrs and are down in the yard for 2hrs. You can do a lot better than that with new batteries and recuperative motor generators at each train car axle and get rid of the locomotive and go aero and PV. You can just sack batteries on as modular power sources and instantly recharge trains if you like or power like mag lev.

    Locomotives have been electric drive forever, so have tanks and dump trucks. If you want to haul a full super tanker up locks its little electric motors in slotted tracks that drag it along.

    Crazy hauls his boat- I guess his boat weighs more than 11,000 lbs with 3000lbs trailer? And clearly he as money to burn because he likes spending like what $3000 a round trip on gas, spends something like $12000 a year on this (more of the gas subsidies are in tact for him so maybe his is only out $9000 a year)- he could probably reduce that to $60 a year if he tried and got 1 cent a kwh solar plus battery system in his house. Certain you have to be able to beat 8 Minute Energies 1.1cent kwh for utility battery backed solar. Its just the rent seekers who don't want to believe it. And he says he has no trouble with slow downs on hills (must not be pulling much) and no trouble with brakes over heating (must not be pulling much.) Guarantee you Cybertruck would drag any truck he's been using to pull those light loads- drag it up a hill backwards. Pretty certain if enough traction could be found and enough juice could be supplied the motors in a tri motor cyber truck would easily win a tug against a Class 8 Diesel. This might just be cognitive dissonance, Crazy might have just bought a new truck and naturally doesn't want to regret the decision.

    So I am betting but (only guessing based on hints) that Cyber is 400 miles under full load to recharge. But even if it only matched Raptor on range instead of destroyed it, its still destroys it on capacity and economy and performance in that tow.
     
  10. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    I'm open minded. 101101 I need to express an opinion. You're simply a difficult person to have a conversation with...sensationalist and exaggerated across the board...even for something as simple as math: If I drive 1,200 miles round trip to U.P. Michigan towing my trailers at 10 mpg, which indeed I do frequently...with gas costing $2.30 as it does today: That's $276 in gas per round trip in gas...not $3,000 as you state. An exaggeration on your part of more than 10 times. And even if I drive 3,000 miles round trip to Wyoming, I spend $690 on fuel, a near 5 times exaggeration on your part. How on God's green earth did you come up with a $3,000 per round trip on fuel figure? And then you tell me how much my boat and trailer weighs without even asking my input. I'm sitting right here man. Ask the question and I might answer with hard facts.

    I'm sorry but with your creative math on something so simple as calculating simple fuel costs I can now only assume you will have the same credibility with your Cybertruck range guesstimates. And I just have to point out you're not very much of a conversationalist nor realist, just spouting off assumptions without asking an individual honest questions...comments like "He could..." and "if he tried he could." and "Crazy hauls his boat..." I"M SITTING RIGHT HERE DUDE! More than willing to answer polite and normal questions from a fellow forum participant. Why are you talking about me in the 3rd person when I'm an active participant in this forum and this thread?! Sorry but that's freakin' wierd, man.

    FWIW I am actively shopping for solar at my home. It interests me and I will likely install it next year. My truck is 4 years old...paid for...not a recent purchase needing to be justified as you speculated. Again you don't ask any questions...you just tell everyone about me yet I am a total online stranger to you, yet you tell others who I am, and what I have, and what I do. Does that not seem a little odd to you?

    Anyway I will elect now to bow out of this conversation. No doubt you will surely continue writing essays to yourself about how locomotives are directly related to personal passenger pickup trucks. Enjoy. For someone who seems to have a great desire to promote all this technology to the public, I feel compelled to point out that you also seem to have a real gift for alienating the people who might be most interested in adopting the very things you are trying to promote! Do you realize that the way you handle yourself on this forum might actually be having a negative impact on the speed of public adoption of EV's and solar? I fear it might.

    I ask that you give that possibility a little bit of thought.

    Other media will inform me when there is a better way to haul my toys around the country available for sale, and I'll stay open minded and likely be an early adopter if and/or when that day comes. Take care, man. I am sorry, but I am simply unwilling to continue having a conversation with you going forward, and will now quietly depart from the room...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  11. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Well Crazy, you're right my calculations were wrong and repeatedly so! I was way off on not just on your stuff but also on lithium density vs gas etc recently. Also thought you wrote you tow somewhere between 500 and 1500 miles one way? So maybe the average was 1200 miles? But if it was 3k round trip 4x a year at $2.30 per gallon and 10mpg it would be about $2700 for the whole year, so way off and if in CA (which you're not) if would be $4620. But you drive 1200 miles rt x 4x a year at 10 mpg at 2.30mpg so that's so only like $1104 so I'd agree that is negligible for most people, that difference alone won't drive the choice. So yep made a fool of my self (not that I matter here) calculating much greater differences now for a few threads.

    I still think the Cybertruck at full load truck itself (5500,) payload (3500,) towing capacity (14000+) is about 23,000lbs and I think it will run like that for 400 miles on average as its tow range. That's a %20 drop. Long range Model S with 100kwh battery is rated for 370 miles, this is adding another motor and another 100kwh plus about 3.65x the weight some more drag and some more cross section and some more rolling resistance. Sure you're adding all that but you're also not going 740 miles with it either and some of what you're adding presumably about 1400lbs is pure motor and battery. If it delivers that number the Ford Raptor is in real trouble and that is the sweet spot in Ford ICE in my mind because its their most fluffy F150 the pride of the whole pitch even if not quite their bread and butter. In a way it like hitting the Mercedes S class all over again. Raptor should be about 288 miles tow range. But I did get carried away even though still seems in CA getting a Ford Raptor to carry what a Cybertruck can across 400 miles would cost about $385 in CA because you'd need two trips and 3 fuel stops and come just short of using up 3 full fuel tanks at 36 gallons and $3.85 a gallon.

    Sorry about the tude.
     
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  13. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Forgiven. Thanks.
     
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  14. Thomas Mitchell

    Thomas Mitchell Active Member

    Watch this and you will see that BEVs have a long way to go before they become practical cross-country tow vehicles. Which makes me wonder why the truck industry is not more focused on PHEVs, perhaps diesel-electric, as they may bridge the gap quite nicely if done right.




    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    First off, I have no pickup truck requirement. However, driving from a farm to city/coop and back is well within the short range shown in the video.

    It also means towed loads need to be in aerodynamic shells with low rolling resistance tires. A towed load might even need its own EV drivetrain to keep the EV tow vehicle 'unloaded.' Regardless, towing is going to likely be a slow and short range affair.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    It takes about five years to develop a truly new model of car or truck, on average. A gasmobile maker moving into the EV space may take even longer for its first BEV model.

    I agree that at present, PHEVs are more practical for long-distance hauling than BEVs, with the very limited amount of energy that current battery packs can hold; no more than the energy in a few gallons of gasoline.

    But legacy auto makers are, finally, doing some long-term planning, and they see that the future of automobiles is BEVs, not PHEVs. Any R&D investment in PHEVs will pay off only for a few years, then it will be obsolete. That's why all or virtually all auto makers have abandoned any further R&D in PHEV tech, and are now concentrating on BEV tech.

    That said, the video in your post is from TFL (The Fast Lane), which has established a reputation for Tesla bashing; sometimes subtle, sometimes quite blatant. They've been accused of deliberately producing anti-Tesla videos as mere click-bait, to get undeserved attention. I think there's a lot of truth in those accusations. Heck, they've even done videos which were nothing more than interviews with (A) a professional stock-shorting hardcore Tesla basher, and (B) the president of a State Auto Dealers Association, who spent most of his screen time bad-mouthing Tesla and spouting FUD.

    Not exactly an unbiased source of info.

     
  17. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    First for the record, the 500 mile range is for tri-motor all wheel drive, not the base or dual motor drive, which is the $70,000 version. The lowest version has a range of 250 miles and towing load of 7000 pounds


    @craze1cars who has lot more experience than I have and he can chime in. Let us assume that the range of the cyber truck is 500 miles with a weight of 5500 pounds i.e. with no or low load e.g. a couple of passengers. If you are going carry an additional 3500 pounds and also tow a trailer of 14,000 +, that is payload of 17500 pounds , that is more than 3 times the weight of the truck, and you have all the resistance that @bwilson4web has mentioned. The drop in range will be much more than 20%. Even with all the electronic controls, the range drop could be 50 to 60%. In real life you are going to be at freeway speeds and road may have ups and down, winds etc.

    And Elon (as everybody else) make a lot of projections which do not turn out to be accurate at least when the truck first comes out. So I would rather wait and see what the actual performance turns out to be, rather take your or anyone elses rosy projections. Tesla is definitely changing the game with the cybertruck, but I think it is unwise to paint everyone else as clueless morons (is that an oxymoron @grammar nazi?). The legacy manufacturers may not be innovating the way Tesla is, but they do know a thing or two about making trucks. I think you are sincere when you believe that everyone else will fall by the wayside. Yes some of the current manufacturers may close their shutters but I would not write them off as yet.
     
  18. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    People have been comparing the Cybertruck to the Model X for towing range. That is helpful to a certain extent, but let's not rely overmuch on it. The Cybertruck is a larger vehicle with larger frontal area, and probably not quite as good Cd. In other words, it has a lot more aero drag than the Model X does. To get the same range unloaded, it's going to have to have a bigger battery pack.

    By the same token, because it's already fighting more air resistance and already using more kW per mile, the percentage loss from towing a trailer of a given aero drag and a given weight will be less. How much less? Well, there we can only guess. But perhaps, for example, if the Model X loses 60% of its range from towing a trailer at near its maximum tow load, the Cybertruck towing the same weight trailer might lose only 50%... or perhaps even slightly less than that? Again, that's just a guess; and again, the aero drag at highway speed is going to affect range significantly more than weight, unless you're going up a mountain or going up and down a lot of hills.

    A claim that the Cybertruck would only lose 20% of its range when towing at maximum or near-maximum load? I regard that as unrealistic. Maybe, just maybe, if you're towing at 30 MPH or less on a very flat road (like western Kansas flat), then maybe the range loss might be that low... but my guess is that even there it would be more than 20%, perhaps in the 25-30% range, and I would guess closer to 30% than 25%.

    That's just applying critical thinking and what I know about BEV range loss due to towing in the Model X. Perhaps someone who's an engineer, someone who can do some napkin math about aero drag and rolling resistance at various speeds, might be able to come closer.

     
  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I presume that was a rhetorical question, but what the heck, as a self-identified Grammar Nazi I'll reply anyway. ;)

    Actually it's a redundancy. An oxymoron is a contradiction in terms, like "jumbo shrimp" or "seriously funny". There's nothing wrong with using a redundancy for emphasis; professional writers do it all the time.

    * * * * *

    Here's a relevant quote from the TV series "The West Wing":

    C.J.: What this is about, Sam, is you’re a high profile, very visible, much noticed member...

    SAM: [interrupting] You just said three things that all mean the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  20. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Thanks for well thought out and open minded comments.

    My guesstimate of range loss under load is much more simple, and based on what happens in my real life many times per year on my ICE 1/2 ton Chevy pickup.

    it is EPA rated at 20 mpg highway. When I hook my snowmobile trailer to it and drive 600 miles of interstate, that drops to somewhere between 9 and 10 mpg. So it’s range per fuel tank drops by a little over 50%.

    It is a physics fact that it takes x amount of fuel to overcome y amount of resistance. And in my example above y already includes added weight, added wind resistance, added rolling resistance, and everything else that needs to be considered.

    Regeneration gains become irrelevant on 600 mile interstate runs because regen almost never has an opportunity to occur, so I throw those out.

    For that reason, I believe an EV range loss would be about the same. To tow my load behind a Cybertruck would likely reduce its EV range by at least 50%. Yet I think it might be worse for one additional reason...the Cybertruck’s coefficient of drag unloaded is likely much more betterrer (did that for the redundancy grammar police) than it is for my Silverado. Therefore
    I think aero drag losses would be a greater percentage after sticking a rectangular trailer behind it.

    So I’ll go in record with a prediction of a 59% loss of unloaded range, after I hook up my snowmobile trailer and try to take it on a trip.

    But wait...there’s more.

    Because that is still ignoring the fact that my snowmobile trailer is only towed at temps somewhere between 30 degrees Fahrenheit and -30 degrees...this is not a summer toy! So let’s average it out to 10 degrees Fahrenheit. What do those low temps do to an EVs reported range? With the heat running all day to keep my tush at a toasty 70 degrees in the cabin over a 9 plus hour drive? In my limited experience with my Clarity it cuts Norma EV range in half yet again!!!

    Thus my final expectation: For a Cybertruck that I might own, used in my typical recreation, with my towing load, used almost exclusively at 10 degrees Fahrenheit, even with the very best 500 mile range version? I predict a range loss of 75% to 80%, bringing it down to 75 to 90 miles. This would result in the need for me to recharge at least 6 times...with much of it becoming more and more wilderness where there are simply no chargers, to reach my one-way destination 600 miles away.

    And I am far from a Tesla basher. I want them to succeed. This is truly what I believe to be true based on my analysis above, and the battery tech available today.

    I am MORE than happy to be a beta tester for anyone who can get ahold of one of these and let me try it out for my typical pickup usage on one haul, this year or next. Prove me wrong, PLeASE!! Bring a camera crew and keep me honest. I will even treat you to a blast of a snowmobile vacation while we are at it! I truly hope my prediction of range is wrong, but I just don’t see how it can be.

    That’s what I think. We need a massive revolution in completely new battery tech before the ICE pickup truck can be replaced for me. They have their place probably in local fleets, and privately as California status grocery getters.

    That’s a big market, and many of these trucks will sell to those users. And I think that’s pretty cool and I look forward to it. But sadly a sale won’t be to me anytime soon...because my analysis and experience leads me to conclude this: The very title of this thread is most likely a fully inaccurate statement, and range under tow load is actually one of my top priorities in buying a truck.

    All Tesla or anyone else has to do to change my mind is to prove me wrong...with a real truck in the field...under my type of usage. Theories are great but proof cannot be determined without a field test.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  21. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    Thank you @Pushmi-Pullyu , yes the question for you. Now the difference is ingrained in me, oxymoron in opposite, redundancy by definition is same. In what case what is an oxymoronic redundancy:D?

    Exactly


    @craze1cars thank you, I was looking for that detailed confirmation. A six hundred mile journey is 8-11 hours driving time depending on fast you drive, road conditions, construction delays (without any breaks or pit stops). If I was using gas, even if I refueled 3 times @10 minutes a stop plus a refueling stop/lunch break of 30 minutes, it adds one hour to the journey. So about 9-12 hours or days worth of driving.

    In a EV, with say an effective range of 150 miles, I have the same 4 stops, but each stop can stretch from 1-3 hours. I have lived in Wyoming and those interior places do not have superchargers or even high speed chargers, it will be in a camping ground or a public park etc. Also I may have to charge 5 times, as the next charger may too far away (assuming there are chargers)

    Hence my charging time is about 5-10 hours instead of the 1 hour for an ICE. That means my whole journey is now closer to 16-20hours, which will necessitate an overnight stay somewhere.

    All these things add up
     
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  22. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    LOL! I think I've been challenged. ;)

    Generally speaking, a redundancy is the opposite of a contradiction, so the term "redundant oxymoron" would itself be an oxymoron. But are there any exceptions?

    Failing to think of any, I cheated by asking Mr. Google for any examples. I found one Reddit comment which points out "So 'redundant oxymoron' is an oxymoron but calling it that is redundant."
    :cool:
     
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  23. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    I was watching 12 Wings Productions where the host, and the host is generally very insightful but recently he talked about the Cybertruck having 800 miles unloaded range to get at 300 miles loaded range. But this is based trying to extrapolate from the Model X a vehicle not designed for towing.

    That is an attempt to extrapolate from a bad data point. I also don't buy this business where a couple brothers use a F250 against a X and have the F250 prevailing 2x out of 3 tug attempts. Suspect the X wins every time and don't by their popping and automatic clutch line to get a ICE into its rev range off the line and I do think the F250 is heavier than the X.

    The Semi is the right data point. As we know it goes S-Model 3, X-Y and Semi- Cybertruck. On traction for regen- the semi is is using double the number of tires under 2x-3x the weight but its pulling 4x the weight. Semi also has another motor to help with efficiency. We know the Semi drops from 620 miles unloaded to 500 loaded range. That is a 20% drop. That is not the 66% drop that the Model X experiences (it wasn' designed for hauling) and not the 50% ICE experiences. There isn't going to be any drop in the cold- that would be utter nonsense for a commercial vehicle, we have to assume that's been totally solved and transferred to Cybertruck. The one area that could hurt the Cybertruck is a trailer without good aero coupling with the Cyber truck. But a trailer could be covered in PV and have auxiliary battery.

    I am guessing mega charging on the Cybetruck could be an option. We shouldn't underestimate Tesla's advantage even its old tech is faster than Taycan in pretty much every way and its got 2x the range even when Porsche added an unnecessary trans. I estimate even an loaded Cybertruck will have about he same eMPG as a Taycan.

    The future of haul transport in the semi space may just be PV covered aero-ed self driving EV trailers without tractors. They would have batteries. maybe 16 wheels, front 8 steering, would be able to auto convoy. Might be able to jump onto train tracks and back off seamlessly. Presumably they will have various version of auto load and unload. If you can solve self driving you can definitely solve that. Guessing their tires will cease to be pneumatic. Might even be compatible with aero drone loading and unloading.

    Even if as speculated above range under full load dropped 25-30- say with under inflated tires and hugely inefficient trailer aerodynamically that is still 350-375 miles which is much better than Raptors 288 miles with half the haul capacity.

    People have to understand that BEV will hit freight and hauling harder than it hit sports car acceleration. I heard this stupid argument that
    hyper cars and super cars will remain ICE or hybrid ICE. That is nonsense because their comparative performance will suck. Same with hydrogen or any other scam for hauling. Rail for instance will have to go full BEV just to remain cost competitive. We can see this when a fully loaded Cybertruck has much better eMPG than an unloaded Toyota Prius. With utter clarity that what a high end efficiency ICE power train can do against a load of 1 unloaded Prius worth. I think we can see on economics alone BEV is already break through better.

    Its taken 7 years to get a 40% range improvement on the Model S. Hate to think it would take until 2027 to get 900 miles range on the Semi. We know this isn't true because right now you could add a second trailer and extra batteries to the first trailer- you could add 8K and batteries to that trailer and easily double the range. Have to keep in mind what happened with locomotives when they replaced the diesel stack and fuel tanks with led acid batteries in 2009- train could run at full load for 24 hrs at a time (only 2 hrs to charge- much better down time than diesel and 2-4x the run time/range.

    We've also learned a bit about Tesla's secret sauce with the long range dual motor verses the performance version on the $2K software upgrade. The differences is a higher capacity inverter (and some wiring persumably) and pre-selection of individual motors that test better for the greater load. Being able to accelerate the native load of has some real overlap with raw haul capacity. Other pieces on just forward movement are series parallel battery wiring and better cooling and less heat loss under load. But we already know that batteries utterly destroy diesel generators and electric motors utterly destroy mechanical transmissions as part of a tractive motor set up and together they even add a recuperative aspect and even a local PV aspects.
     

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