Has anyone tried towing with their Clarity?

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Casey Martin, May 1, 2019.

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  1. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    Greetings, any folks with towing and insurance experience in the US?

    I agree with @Landshark , however I wanted to ask from a different perspective. Even if someone was convinced the car can do it, and the hitch was engineered for the required loads, and one was experienced enough to tow correctly - can you legally do it? If legal, are your insurable?

    I have scanned through this thread and am not going to weigh in on any of the mechanical issues/limitations. I have one question for anyone that has modded a vehicle (not just the Clarity) for towing that was not OEM intended for towing (not an option from the factory or dealer) and lives in the USA. I am planning to install the Clarity hitch for carrying a bike rack. However, I called my insurance agent, who actually checked with the underwriter to confirm and called me back. I cannot purchase an insurance rider for a trailer or a towed item for my car policy. If I was in an accident, I would be covered up to my liability limit as far as an injured party. However, at least in Texas with the way the highway code is written, if you are doing something unauthorized by vehicle rating and are in an accident that has a proximate cause related to that unauthorized activity (ticket-able) you will be assigned fault. Now, the police do not assign insurance fault - but the insurance company will take your factors from the report and weight it that way. I am not talking about a minor accident, I am thinking the towed item breaks free from the hitch or similar. So, what I was told is that although others parties would be covered for damages, I would be out, as the claim would be denied as a limit of the policy. That denial could end me up in court if the other party sued, and I would be hard pressed to prove I was not acting with "negligence" and maybe worse "gross negligence."

    Anyone ever have to deal with this, ask their agent, or similar? Seems I would be on my own if I was pulling a trailer and lost control or had a failure that resulted in an accident that would likely have not occurred if the trailer was not present.

    Based on the above, I am obviously not going to tow anything with my Clarity. May be a limit of my underwriter, as we have no problem with that insurance coverage on my wife's Toyota 4 Runner.

    Curious,
    Cash
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  3. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    I have 25 years behind me of investigating and handling auto insurance claims in the US. And it always cracks me up when agents and underwriters get together. Neither has an ounce of claim paying experience. I do.

    Obviously I don't know who your insurance company is, and I haven't read your policy, but in 25 years I have never in my life seen an insurance policy that doesn't automatically extend liability to damage caused by a trailer being towed by the insured vehicle. Have you read all the fine print of your auto policy? I can't fathom that it doesn't mention a trailer in it. Therefore no "trailer rider" exists, because none is needed. For liability purposes only, towing a trailer, owned or rented, is included in the base policy of every single car insurance policy I have ever read.

    For example in my personal Clarity policy it is right on the main page page 1 under "definitions." Under Liability Protection: "owned auto we insure" means any: 1. auto or trailer you own." It goes on to include rented trailers, etc...

    So by very definition of the policy, any trailer you attach to your vehicle is considered an "owned auto we insure." ANY TRAILER.

    We also have a saying in insurance. "We insure stupidity."

    Speaking from a liability perspective:
    1. If you space out and look left when you should be looking straight and accidentally rear end someone You are stupid but it's covereed.
    2. If you get drunk and cause an accident, you are stupid but it's covered.
    3. If you close your eyes while driving thru a red light and hit someone accidentally, you are stupid, but it's covered.
    4. And if you tow a 10,000 pound trailer with a small car that's not designed to tow at all, and it breaks loose and goes off and wrecks into something, it's also stupid, and equally covered.

    The only thing NOT covered? Things listed in the exclusions section of your policy. Read it. Trailers won't be mentioned. However intentional acts are generally excluded. So if you purposely ram another car with intent to do damage, it is NOT covered.

    A big one that gets people most frequently today is "We will not pay for loss while any auto we insure is being used for Business use, or as a Transportation Network Company partner. We commonly refer to this as the UBER/LYFT exclusion. If you are driving your personal car for UBER or LYFT, you are absolutely NOT COVERED. EVER. Instant denial. You must purchase a separate business liability policy. It is shocking the number of UBER and LYFT drivers running around uninsured...and they have no friggin idea. I stunned a whole lot of UBER and LYFT freelancers with denial letters late in my career...their accidents cost them tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket with zero covereage.
     
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  4. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    @craze1cars

    Thank you for the response, I had hoped you would weigh in with your experience! I played devils' advocate in the referenced call specifically disclosing that my Clarity EOM Manual stated that towing was not approved (since I have no plans to tow with it). It is likely that was the motive in the response. I agree with everything you said - you have the experience. As I said, I wondered if anyone here had a "modded" vehicle, and had the unfortunate experience of being involved in a claim event (hopefully everyone ok). However, your industry experience is certainly enough. I did think it was relevant to this thread to discuss this, and your input is now immortalized for everyone later.

    It follows my favorite line from Jurassic Park, "Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

    Cheers,

    Cash
     
    sabasc likes this.
  5. I haven’t modified a vehicle, to tow, that wasn’t designed and rated to tow, for obvious reasons.

    To the best of my knowledge, additional insurance is not required to tow a trailer for personal use, with a vehicle designed and rated to tow the trailer.

    I believe that you have answered most of your questions, and contacting your insurance provider is always a wise decision. You are correct, in my opinion, that knowingly or unknowingly operating a vehicle in a manner prohibited by the manufacturer, would qualify the operator for gross negligence or negligence in the event of an accident. In the case of the Clarity, towing is prohibited by Honda. It doesn’t become ok, or safe, or legal simply because the person doing the towing has been towing boats or campers for the past 40 years.

    Towing questions come up all the time in the RV world. I own a Class A diesel motorhome that has a 10,000 lb tow rating. We flat tow (4 wheels on the ground) a ~5000 lb vehicle behind it. Some coaches have a 5K tow rating and some owners think they can just install a 10K hitch and tow 10K.

    I have a 3/4 ton truck that I used to tow a tandem axle utility trailer that weighed between 5-6K, well below the rating of the truck. Now it gets used occasional to tow a piece of farm machinery from the rental yard. In my younger days I towed boats to go water skiing. So some towing experience.

    You’ve made a great point in demonstrating why it would be ill advised to use a Clarity to tow a trailer, even for someone who believes the vehicle is mechanically capable and that they possess the skill set to do so. Of course, anyone who has the skill, and knowledge, to tow safely would use the correct equipment.
     
    Cash Traylor likes this.
  6. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    All valid.

    Legality,
    wise to do so,
    negligent,
    covered by insurance

    These are 4 distinctly different things, and not always related, though “the good people” out there tend to logically associate them with one another often. But in practice they are all considered entirely independent of one another.

    To simplify, it is both illegal and unwise to roll thru stop signs at 15 mph. Yet if an accident occurs while this happens, only then is the person negligent, and as such the driver who did so is also covered by insurance. Because insurance covers the negligent act...legal or not...unless the act is specifically excluded in the policy.

    Recognize my last insurance company employer had a rare specialty product. They sold auto insurance to unlicensed drivers. This is a step beyond high risk insurance. Actual unlicensed drivers was the target market for one of their products. It sold very very well, and they had very little competition in the market. Let that one sink in for a bit.
     
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  8. ashmtl

    ashmtl Member

    I just downloaded the Owner's Manual for 2020 USA and Canada edition and read the explanations how to calculate the load if you are going to tow a trailer. Nowhere in the text it says that you can not tow a trailer. Only at the end it says "Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can void your
    warranties." which is appropriate, because it is not designed to do it like the pickup trucks or 4x4s are. Here is the copy of that portion:
    The maximum load for your vehicle is 850 lbs (385 kg). See the Tire and Loading Information label attached to the driver’s doorjamb.
    This figure includes the total weight of all occupants, cargo, and accessories, and the tongue load if you are towing a trailer.
    Steps for Determining Correct Load Limit -
    (1) Locate the statement “The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kg or XXX lbs.” on your vehicle’s placard.
    (2) Determine the combined weight of the driver and passengers that will be riding in your vehicle.
    (3) Subtract the combined weight of the driver and passengers from XXX kg or XXX lbs.
    (4) The resulting figure equals the available amount of cargo and luggage load capacity. For example, if the “XXX” amount equals 1,400 lbs. and there will be five 150 lb. passengers in your vehicle, the amount of available cargo and luggage load capacity is 650 lbs. (1,400 - 750 (5 x 150) = 650 lbs.)
    (5) Determine the combined weight of luggage and cargo being loaded on the vehicle. That weight may not safely exceed the available cargo and luggage load capacity calculated in step 4.
    (6) If your vehicle will be towing a trailer, load from your trailer will be transferred to your vehicle. Consult this manual to determine how this reduces the available cargo and luggage load capacity of your vehicle.
    In addition, the total weight of the vehicle, all occupants, accessories, cargo, and trailer tongue load must not exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) or the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR). Both are on a label on the driver’s doorjamb.
    Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can void your warranties.

    I hope this clarifies a lot of things.
     
    sabasc likes this.
  9. It clarifies that you do not understand the meaning of the words “not designed to tow a trailer”.
     
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  10. ashmtl

    ashmtl Member

    Not designed means not designed and doesn't mean you can't. So you are saying that with all the calculations met I can not tow a small 500 lb trailer with no passengers in the car? I think I can and it is the decision of each owner that also will depend on the ability of the driver to do so.
    It clearly states that it is not forbidden. It has the explanation how to do it and the vehicle has the place made to hook up a hitch.
    Another question is if it is a good idea to do so? I think not, because it is not designed to tow. So, one must really know what he is doing if one decides to tow with Clarity or any vehicle that is not designed to do so. I used a hitch and towed trailers with my Mitsubishi RVR (Sport in USA) that was also "not designed to tow" for 4 years, and the warranty was there, and the vehicle was not damaged. I have traded it in and the dealer did a thorough inspection. Will I recommend everyone to do so? The answer is a definite NO. Believe me, I understand the meaning of "Not designed...".
     
  11. Your calculations are flawed. Two pieces of information are required to determine the amount of weight a vehicle can tow on public roads.
    1) A Rated Towing Capacity provided by the vehicle manufacturer.
    2) A Gross Combined Weight Rating, also provided by the manufacturer.
    Neither is provided by Honda for the Clarity. In this case, no information, provides the necessary information.

    The wording explaining how to add trailer tongue weigh to the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, is most likely included as standard Owners Manual information for every vehicle made by Honda. The disclaimer stating the vehicle is not designed to tow, negates that explanation.

    Again, someone who knows what they are doing would not use a Clarity to tow a trailer. Someone lacking knowledge may try it, but that would be the opposite of what you’ve said above.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  13. tsttm

    tsttm New Member

    I find the info in this thread quite informative- thanks for those who have contributed.

    So, I found this webpage about towing a jetski with a car in general:
    https://www.watercraftlife.com/can-you-tow-a-jet-ski-with-a-car/

    Is there anything in particular about the Clarity that distinguishes it from an average car (like those mentioned in this article) that makes it any less appropriate to tow? (I say this thinking that most other 'cars' are likely not 'designed to tow' and probably have similar disclaimers in their manuals?)

    Near the end of the article, it talks about increasing a car's towing capacity (almost double) by adding electric brakes to the trailer.

    Would anyone who's expressed hesitancy/concern to tow with the Clarity feel any differently if a trailer with say ~1000lb load was equiped with such electric brakes?

    Just curious. I know there's some on here that a quite adamant on their feelings about the OP's question posed, but I wonder if there's any valuable points made in the article above that could address this question.
     
  14. Did you read the part where it said “... as long as your car has the towing capacity to accommodate the weight...”?

    The vehicle manufacturer determines the towing capacity for each vehicle that they make. You cannot increase the manufacturers rated towing capacity by using a trailer that is equipped with brakes.

    Now can you tell us what the rated towing capacity is for the Clarity?

    Can it tow something? Sure. If you install a hitch and a wiring harness and hook up a trailer, the car will not drop anchor, refuse to go into Drive and summon the authorities. People do things they are not supposed to do all the time. This is why we have ambulances, nurses, laws, lawyers, judges and a lifetime of U-boob videos to watch.

    From an engineering standpoint, the car has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of just under 5000lbs. That’s the weight of the car plus about 800lbs, or 4 fleshy Americans. That is the maximum weight at which the car is designed to operate. The electric motor, the ICE and single gear ratio, brakes, suspension, steering components, etc. All designed to schlep around 2 1/2 tons.
     
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  15. ashmtl

    ashmtl Member

    It looks like this topic keeps coming back every month. I finally got my base 2020 Clarity model, i.e. the lightest one, and can see why one can not tow anything. The registration says that the net weight is 1823 Kg. The GVWR is 2252 Kg. So, the maximum additional weight you can put in is 429 Kg for the passengers, cargo and the trailer and car combination. Even if you (~100 Kg) will be alone in the car with no luggage or gear, the trailer must be no more than 329 Kg. If you add a hitch for towing (~20 Kg) you will have left with 309 kg. Let's say 9 kg is your gear. Can you find a trailer and a jetski with total weight of under $300Kg? I do not think so. For your information the trailer with brakes does not change the GVWR. Every country has it's laws about the trailer brakes that is dependent of the trailer gross weight, not the load.
    Now, let's leave the can or can not part for now, because if you want to destroy your vehicle it will be your choice. But any police officer that has a little knowledge about your vehicle, will stop you if you are towing a trailer and will impound it, or will make you to drop the trailer that will be towed away and you will have to pay the fine, the towing, the storage and legal fees to get it back. If you are OK with that, you may go ahead, but if you have a little common sense you will not do that. If all this did not convince you that you can not tow with Clarity, you may go to the U-Haul site and try to rent the smallest trailer marking your Clarity as the vehicle used. I do not think you will be able to rent, which will prove the facts above. Clarity_Tag.jpg
     
  16. ClarityBill

    ClarityBill Active Member

    Well the 'official' word is out... UHaul just let me reserve a trailer to tow with my Clarity. They do require my hitch to have a capacity of 2,000 pounds, which is another problem for my Ecohitch...
     
  17. ashmtl

    ashmtl Member

    I am really surprised, but that could be your state regulation. The best source for you will be the local DMV office. The hitch installation by itself might void your warranty. I just try to do the same and yes, it allows to rent. Very strange. When I had a front wheel drive Mitsubishi RVR, I was not able to rent a trailer from U-Haul, only with an all wheel drive model. Anyways, I would not install a hitch on my Clarity.
     
  18. The Ecohitch is rated to tow 2000lbs. No problem there.

    The problem is, the Clarity isn’t rated to tow.
     
  19. Total trailer weight is not a part of the GVW calculation. Only the tongue weight of the trailer is added to determine GVW.

    A properly loaded bumper pull or tag trailer will have a tongue weight equal to 10-12% of the total trailer weight. A 1000lb trailer should have a tongue weight of 100-120lbs. That is the amount that is added to the vehicle weight.

    The total weight of the trailer is then added to the vehicle weight to determine the Gross Combined Weight. This needs to be less than the GCWR provided by the manufacturer for the tow vehicle.

    There is no GCWR for the Clarity.
     
  20. Steven B

    Steven B Active Member

    I'll add that the Clarity has less ground clearance than a normal car. Those of us who have tried to use our floor jacks with it can confirm. And since putting on my 2" hitch, I've scraped it more than once on surface transitions.
     
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  21. My previous “normal” car, a VW Jetta, had 5.6” of ground clearance, the “normal” one before that, an Audi, had 5.2”. I just measured the Clarity at 6.2”.

    Here’s an idea for a custom hitch that may help with the tail dragging issue.
    04F8761D-00E5-4294-89D1-4C8F0ADFB9B9.png
     
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  22. Emagin

    Emagin Member

    OK so there is NO ONE in North America that has tried towing anything with their Clarity?? Is this possible.
    I have the Torklift 2018-2020 Honda Clarity EcoHitch SKU: x7377 installed, carrying bikes and cargo rack with no problems (other than rather low clearance)
    I also have a DK2 mmt5x7 https://detailk2.com/mmt5x7-info CURB WEIGHT 451 LB (204.6 KG)
    I'm gonna hook that up, throw some load into it and see what happens on local hills
     
  23. Emagin

    Emagin Member

    Hope you're joking. You can get metal hitches that angle or build up. I would not do that with douglas fir!
     

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