Clarity Started in Park- again

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Geor99, Nov 27, 2019.

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  1. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    Well, since you just proved that the big battery charges the 12v battery, there goes "the Ice is starting to charge the battery" theory.

    Since its has happened quickly on a cool day, after sitting in the 55F night air for 10 hours with double digit ev miles left, I dont buy that it needed to run the cooling system either.

    I guess that the unproveable without Honda help "Systems Check" will remain as the last standing theory.
     
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  3. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    A single moment in time disproves nothing. Yes the big battery charges the 12v battery. And the ICE spins a generator that charges the big battery. Therefore the ICE charges the 12v battery. At the time of @bpratt test, the car saw a need to charge the 12v battery, so he read 15v. But realize a later test may reveal battery voltage only with no charge taking place. Even modern ICE vehicles don’t run alternators 100% of the time anymore...the old 15v test he refers to is becoming obsolete because many now put out variable voltage, and sometimes no voltage, depending on demands and state of battery charge at any given moment. My last 2 Silverado’s frequently disengaged their alternators and “appeared” to be non functioning to an older mechanic friend of mine not privy to new car programming. He thought it was defective but it was operating as programmed. Disengagement of alternator is a common fuel saving tactic today on newer cars...it’s wasteful to spin it all the time.

    Seems clear there is/was some demand that causes your car to start at times.

    or a glitch.

    Again only a Honda engineer can probably answer your query about why the engine starts when it does. Unless you find one, I believe a definitive answer will forever be a mystery.

    But I sure as heck wouldn’t entirely throw out the “need to charge something” theory...
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  4. We are guessing to some degree, at the same time we are learning.

    In a previous thread, member M.M. successfully used the HV battery, through the DC-DC converter, the 12V battery and a 1500W inverter to provide backup power to some household appliances and lights. Tests and measurements while preparing for this project revealed the following:

    The iCE will start up when the HV battery reaches 1% SOC and charge until it reaches 4% SOC, per the HL App.

    The HV battery, through the DC-DC converter, maintains the 12V battery at 14.5V.

    This information would seem to indicate that the ICE should not start, in order to charge anything, when the vehicle displays EV range of 13-14 miles or more than 2 bars on the gauge.

    It also indicates that the charge on the 12V battery is maintained by the HV battery until the HV is depleted.

    I will amend my previous statement that the ICE does not charge the 12V battery, to read: The ICE does not charge the 12V battery directly. I realize that an alternator equipped ICE does not charge the battery directly either. Ultimately, what signals the ICE to run, while parked in EV, is a depleted HV battery, not a low 12V battery.
     
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  5. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    That makes sense...I completely forgot we had M.M. reporting using the car to run backup power for extended period of time, with heavy drain on 12V battery during that time, and with engine never starting until the large battery was depleted. That was an outstanding experiment that answered a lot of questions about how the car acts and charges the 12V battery.

    So M.M.'s car didn't start during that time, as most would expect it shouldn't, then I will now assume Geor99's car has a glitch/defect that's causing it to start when it still has reserve in the large battery, alternately it might be some sort of "maintenance mode" kicking in for the engine...So I retract some of my earlier speculative posts here.
     
  6. rodeknyt

    rodeknyt Active Member

    Maybe that's because you have location services turned on and they're tracking you. Turn it off and they won't know when to harass you ;)
     
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  8. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    Last night, my door was not shut all of the way when loading groceries into the house. I suppose that the interior light was left on, although I didn't pay much attention to it.

    Anyway, I pull the car out of the driveway, put it in park to go manually close the driveway gate, and when I returned the ice was charging the battery- green line going into the battery on the display.

    I had a full charge. Perhaps, the all-night light drained the battery, and the ice kicked on to recharge it???

    I've had the ice kick on many times while in park, but it has never happened this quickly. Normally it takes 10-20 minutes of being in park with the car "ON."
     
  9. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW Well-Known Member

    As I mentioned before I believe it is your 12v. I had an interesting experience so I will post everything that happened for discussion. It may all be coincidence but I think it suggests that the culprit is one of the two batteries (specifically the 12v leeching off the lithium battery).

    I have posted in other threads that I believe that the ICE kicks on when you have a full charge and excess energy from regen braking. I still believe this is true but there might be a wrinkle to this.

    I have a Scangauge which has a measurement of the the max and min percentage of the individual cells state of charge. So it is reporting the highest reading of the most charged cell in the entire pack and the lowest of the least. This is the true state of charge and is not what is reported in the app. It is labeled MXS for max state of charge and MNS for min state of charge. Note that the MXS of 96.0% corresponds to 100% SOC on the app. At the bottom of the battery pack a MXS of 20% corresponds to the app SOC of 10% and when the car starts the engine automatically.


    For the past year the smallest spread is at the top of the charge, Max 96.0% - Min 95.4. All 166 of the other cells are between that range. The largest spread at the bottom of the charge has been 1.8%, MXS of 20.0%, MNS of 18.2%. That is when it is warm outside. When cold, the spread has has increased to nearly 2.5%, 20.0 - 17.5. On the day of this occurrence the spread reach 3.1%.

    I rarely let the state of charge go below 45% on the app which corresponds to a 50% MXS. The past couple of weeks I have been charging to 90 and running it all the way down to the ICE turn on just because of the nature of the drives. The other day I did my byweekly full charge. Turned car on but had to run back in the house. Got back in the car and while programming my GPS in park the ICE turned on. Caught me by surprise. Looked are my Scangauge and the spread 1.3%. 95.8% to 94.5%. That is double the normal top of charge spread.

    My thought is that maybe it’s possible the car is finishing the balancing of the battery. Of course this is one occurrence that might be just a coincidence. Possibly a combo of a larger than normal spread at the bottom of the pack and the 12v leeching on it.

    My 12v is getting kind of weak as it reads 14.3 max when the car is on. 12.2 when the car is off and 11.8 when the car is in accessory mode. I will say that since I experienced this I have not depleted the battery as much and charged to full every night instead of just twice a week. The top of charge spread got progressively better each night and after 4 nights it was back to the 0.6% that I am used to seeing. Again, this may all be coincidence and amount to a hill of beans but I thought I would share. I will also add that it was bitterly cold, I usually park in hearted garage but had not been for a week because of a project and the Scangauge reported the the temp of the lithium battery at 32. It may have been colder but the Scangauge can’t read below 32.

    I haven’t looked over this post in a while, so I can’t remember if you have taken the car to the dealership. If it were me I would take it to the dealership and have them load test the 12v. Also I would ask them for a live readout of the lithium battery. They will look at you as if you just spoke Martian. Ask them to hook it up the HDS, go to the Electric Powertrain menu and record the live data while the car is on (the ice does not have to be running). The data takes up about 8 pages. If you get a chance to do all this post the data to this thread and we can all take a look at. If I were a betting man, I would put all my money on them telling you that it is normal behavior (absent an issue with the 12v.)


    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
  10. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    You can also go to most any auto parts store and they will be happy to load test your 12V battery. Might save you an hour or two at the dealer.
     
  11. The Gadgeteer

    The Gadgeteer Active Member

    ICE running in Park might have more to do with the climate control running.
    In 14K miles I have not had the ICE start with CC off while in park.
     
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  13. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    It has started for me several times, when not using any climate control.

    When I get a free moment, Im planning on going to Autozone to test the battery.
     
  14. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW Well-Known Member

    Geor99,

    Did you ever get your 12v tested? What were the results?


    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
  15. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    Hey Man,

    I was out of town for 2 weeks visiting family and a week for work, so no I haven't yet.
    Ill try to pop into autozone this week and post the results.
     
  16. The Gadgeteer

    The Gadgeteer Active Member

    I have to admit I don’t leave the car “on” for very long just sitting in Park since there is no harm in turning the Clarity off then on multiple times even for short periods of times.
     
  17. Geor99

    Geor99 Active Member

    1st off, Id like to thank you for keeping on me to check the battery.

    So, I went to O'Reilly to get the battery checked. The tester said "bad battery. " The guy testing it said that it cant give any more info than just bad or good with the tester.

    I bought the car new in October of 2018. So, its about 15 months old with 20k miles.

    Anyone know if its still under warranty and what kind of hoops I will need to go through?

    I suppose that a call to the dealer is in order.

    And I won't do this, but what happens if it is ignored? Will it run in ev and die if it needs to switch to HV?

    I'm absolutely getting a new battery asap. Im just curious what would happen if I didn't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  18. JCA

    JCA Active Member

    HV vs EV probably doesn't matter -- starting the ICE in the Clarity (or most hybrids) doesn't use a 12V starter motor at all; the generator attached to the engine is spun up using the high voltage battery power get the engine started; this is smoother and less wearing on the engine making it okay to start and stop very often (as is the case in a non PHEV or a PHEV in HV mode). Even other 12V loads like wipers, fans, and headlights are effectively being powered by the high voltage battery (via DC-DC converter) when the car is on in any driving mode. The 12V battery is mainly needed to power the computers enough to do safety checks and switch on the high voltage system, and when off to run the charge detect controls, and keep radio stations and other settings

    I wouldn't be surprised if you could disconnect the 12V battery once the car is "On" and drive normally in both EV and HV; traditional cars need the battery in place to help regulate and buffer the voltage levels, but the DC-DC converter may be more capable and precise on its own. I won't and wouldn't recommend trying that however, much expensive stuff to damage if I'm wrong!

    In any case, definitely try the dealer first for warranty coverage, but it's worth checking Costco or other sources for a competitive price if they refuse.
     
  19. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I would be astounded if the Clarity could operate without a 12-Volt battery to power all the 12-Volt components, including the ECU and other assorted CUs.
     
  20. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Definitely covered under warranty but may be pro-rated.
    Depending on pro-rata and dealer battery price, it may be cheaper to buy elsewhere. Only a trip to the dealer will tell you for sure.
     
  21. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Yeah, they probably count the day the Clarity left the factory in Japan as the start date on the pro-rating period, ignoring all the time the car may have been sitting on the dealer's lot without being charged. (Is there a notation for cynical font?)
     
  22. JCA

    JCA Active Member

    When the car is "Ready", the voltage on the 12V system is ~14V because the DC-DC converter is the electricity supply in the "12V" circuit; the 12V battery at that point is just another consuming load like the ECO, headlights, fans, etc. That's actually true of any car when running (via the alternator instead of the DC-DC converter), but the quality of the power from especially an older generation alternator might not be very good, and the voltage droops and surges without the battery buffering could cause problems. With modern voltage regulators, I suspect the DC-DC converter supplies a pretty clean consistent voltage, and it has to be sized to supply the max load anyway (computers, high beam headlights, fan on high, seat heaters assuming they're the same as other Hondas and thus 12V, etc) otherwise your battery would be drained after a long winter night drive. You can verify this by turning on all that stuff and measuring the voltage; if it's higher than the native battery voltage when off then the battery is being charged, not supplying power.

    BUT, again, the consequence of being wrong (e.g. if the voltage regulation isn't good) is replacing a ton of expensive electronics, so please nobody do it!
     
  23. leop

    leop Active Member

    Honda warrants the 12V battery at 100% for the first three years, starting when the vehicle is delivered to the first purchaser or leasee (see pages 6 and 9 of the warranty booklet). After three years, the 12V battery has prorated warranty coverage up to the 100 month, 8 years and 4 months total (page 34). So, no cynical font needed but just a happy font.

    LP
     
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