Clarity Fuel Cell

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by TeslaInvestors, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    OK, yes. Definitely agree the fueling cost is way too high for H2 right now. That's why I said, buying makes no sense.
    My $15000 card will pretty much cover my entire 60k miles for 3 years; so it's a good deal.

    As you noted, charging outside home is expensive.
    We have many stores and malls that have installed 1-2 EVSE chargers where people can charge for free.
    Those are often misused. People who don't need to charge, just charge there because they are free. People who really need the charge can't find a free spot. So, I think the $3/KWh is fair price. It discourages free loading, and likely is also the true cost (plus some profit of course) of charging there.
     
  2. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I had no idea any HUD was so bright and clear, even in full sunlight. Everybody is going to want one! :)

     
  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Of course, that means it's commercially produced H2, and thus almost certainly made by reforming natural gas, rather than being renewable hydrogen.

    Not that this means anybody should stop driving their FCEV, but advocates for hydrogen fuel always talk about renewable H2 as if that's what FCEVs run on. In reality, most of what's dispensed from H2 fueling stations is made from fossil fuel; it ain't renewable or "green" at all.

     
  4. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    1/3rd of the energy for hydrogen in California must be renewable.
    https://www.greencarreports.com/new...rogen-rule-forcing-the-carbon-numbers-to-work
     
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Is that actually enforced? Somehow I doubt it. If it's delivered in a truck, it's almost certainly not renewable H2. Some 95% of commercially produced H2 is made from reforming natural gas; where would anyone get a reliable daily supply of the renewable stuff in that much quantity?

    I'd like to see some investigative journalism on this subject; follow the H2 tanker truck to see where it picked up its supply!

    * * * * *

    Quoting from "How Is Hydrogen Fuel Made?"

    Steam methane reforming accounts for 95 percent of the hydrogen produced in the United States. This is a catalytic process that involves reacting natural gas or other light hydrocarbons with steam to produce a mixture of hydrogen and carbon dioxide. The mixture is then separated to produce high-purity hydrogen...
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  6. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    My alma mater, the University of Michigan, is offering some hope for renewable hydrogen production:
    Harvesting clean hydrogen fuel through artificial photosynthesis
    http://eecs.umich.edu/eecs/about/articles/2018/mi-hydrogen-fuel.html

    Their process is up to a seemingly modest 3% efficiency now, but that's not too bad if their claim that 5 percent efficiency is the threshold for commercialization is true. The team is aiming for 20 or 30 percent efficiency.

    This comparison surprised me: “Natural photosynthesis, depending how you calculate it, has an efficiency of about 0.6 percent.”
     
  7. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Hard to see how that could be true. Using solar power and electrolysis, the efficiency should be (0.21 x .7 =) 14.7%, so it's hard to see how 5% efficiency could compete. I suppose if their process is very cost-efficient it might be able to compete, but with efficiency that low, cost of land and infrastructure (such as plumbing and storage tanks) becomes a serious percentage of the cost. Last I read about hydrogen produced by artificial synthesis, the catalyst was quite expensive and broke down in a fairly short time. Therefore the cost was prohibitive, and certainly that sort of process could not be scaled up to industrial level.

    Good to see that the UMich team solved that problem, or at least has claimed to.

    But let's not forget that merely generating the H2 is only the first step in a long supply chain of getting fuel into the tank of a FCEV. That's one of several prohibitive problems with trying to scale up hydrogen to fuel FCEVs into widespread, practical use; the long, energy-sapping supply chain for hydrogen fuel, with energy lost at every link in the chain.

    I keep pointing this out, but it keeps getting ignored. Perhaps a mathematical example would help: Let's say, to greatly oversimpify things for the sake of illustration, there are 4 steps in the well-to-wheel process, and each is 50% efficient. That yields a total efficiency of only (.5 x .5 x .5 x .5 =) 6.25%. If we increased the efficiency of the first step (which would represent generation of the H2) by half, to 75%, this increases overall efficiency to (.75 x .5 x .5 x .5 =) 9.38%. That's certainly a substantial improvement over 6.25%, but compared to using a more practical fuel, or compared to using electricity to charge batteries in a BEV, it's still abysmal and never could possibly compete economically.

    It's very common to see, in comments from FCEV fanboys, enthusiastic discussion of some breakthrough tech for generating H2 more cheaply or more efficiently. Unfortunately, such talk always ignores the reality that improving the efficiency of generating the H2, by itself, isn't going to have much impact on the picture as a whole.

     
    insightman likes this.
  8. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    Whoa! I was still expecting the same. but after my fill up today, the range showed 349 miles! It's a long grind up from the initial range of 250 miles.
    So I checked my energy info. It is up to 70.2 mpkg now! Only difference is that last weekend I didn't do my logn drive on hilly roads. have been dirving mostly local freeways and expressways.

    It's a shame that so many websites promote 80 mile EVs like it's science fiction come true, but hide the longest range best in class FCEVs that suit the consumers very nicely.

    range_349miles.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
    JyChevyVolt likes this.
  9. altfuelcarguy

    altfuelcarguy Member

    I've got around 12,000 miles on my Clarity Fuel Cell. My range reading is rarely below 300 miles after a fill-up, but I can easily get it down to 250 miles by driving 80 mph for awhile. My commute is 40 miles each way , and speeds vary between 30 mph and 75 mph. Here's a photo of my dash display after filling up the other day. BTW did y'all know that the "B" trip meter can be configured to automatically reset itself to 0 each time you refuel? I find it pretty handy to have that readout of how far I've gone since refueling, next to the predicted range. 20180601_125937.jpg
     
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  10. altfuelcarguy

    altfuelcarguy Member

    I've driven Davis to Long Beach, and on another trip Davis to Ventura. Easy. The fueling station at Harris Ranch is the key. From there you can continue on I-5, or head west toward the coast. On the Ventura trip we took 33 south, over the mountains through Ojai. Beautiful drive with almost no traffic. There are so many stations in the L.A. area, seems like you're never more than 15 miles from one.
     
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  11. altfuelcarguy

    altfuelcarguy Member

    Here in northern California, the ev plan gives you $0.10 overnight rate. We charger overnight for a dollar or so.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Inside EVs mobile app
     
  12. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    Getting the first taste of Hydrogen shortage. 3 out of 4 stations in south bay went offline today. Called TrueZero; said will be back online by early afternoon!
    There are so few stations, so where are people going to go?
    If I make my 60 mile round trip tomorrow, I will be left with < 10 miles and can't reach a station from home with that :( So I will have to take the gas guzzler SUV tomorrow.

    if there is hydrogen scarcity with just about 4000-5000 FCEVs in California, adding some battery power to the cars may be good. Remove a kg of H2 tank, and put in 20-30 miles of batteries. But that's a whole new design of the car.
    Other than this, the car still drives great and is very quiet.
     
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  13. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    I was wrong about the Mountain View Linde station. It went offline because it closes at 10 p.m. Called them in the morning, just to make sure and chatted for a while. The lady said, she has never heard any of their station going out of hydrogen. Some mechanical issues, sure.
    Learnt that the Mountain view station stores 350 kg of hydrogen vs. 150 kg for the True Zero station at San Jose.
    So I did make the trip in the Clarity and filled up with ~25 miles left.

    The Linde one is liquid hyrdogen while Truezero are gaseous. Ended up watching the video 3 times due to soem mistakes in pressing the right buttons, that seems to be using the existing buttons from the old gas pump it replaced. OTOH, it gave out very detailed information on screen. It showed that I got a 98% fill up. My range showed 350 miles right after.
    The nozzle was also little different. There was air blowing into it to prevent it from freezing.
    mtnview_station.jpg

    But then, I had to take the gas SUV for another long trip as I can't fit a tree pruner and a pole saw in the Clarity. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  14. TeslaInvestors

    TeslaInvestors Active Member

    * I'm now at 355 mile now on fill ups. Already at 3700 miles odometer.
    * Mind blowing recharge speed for ANY electric car! By the time I cleaned by rear window, it's done.
    * No visit to service center yet in 2 1/2 months.

    P.S: OK, OK. I'm just trying to bump it up to raise awareness of the fastest charging EVs.
     
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  15. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    It doesn't charge at all; neither fast nor slow. It fills up with fuel, like a gasmobile, only a lot more expensive (for Honda, not for you, since Honda is paying for the fuel) and -- as you've already discovered -- much harder to find a place to fill up.

    Strange that you feel compelled to compare filling a fuel tank to charging a plug-in EV. Anybody who wants a car that's easy and fast to fill will buy a gasmobile, not a hydrogen-powered FCEV.

     
  16. llamallamaredpijama

    llamallamaredpijama New Member

    Hi all - newbie here :)

    Strongly considering a Clarity FCV lease to replace my A6 TDI - primarily for the HOV sticker due to my commute. I did not realize there's a wait-list for these cars and now I seem to hear conflicting information - online I read it's ~1 year (or less if someone drop out), but Dublin Honda said its 60-90 day wait list.

    Also - does anyone know if there's any way to add a blind spot indicator to the left-side mirror (though I guess not financially practical if you lease)? It doesn't seem to be an option (backup sensors are... which I think should come as a standard).

    Thanks!
     
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  17. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Do yourself a favor, and drive to the nearest 2 or 3 hydrogen fueling stations, and ask what hours they are open. Also, ask if it's better to come earlier in the day in case they run out of fuel before closing time.

    And don't believe what you read on the California Fuel Cell Partnership's website about new fueling stations opening soon; they've been promising 100+ stations open within the next year, for years now. Not gonna happen.

    If you are determined to buy (or rather lease) a car that can only be fueled by compressed hydrogen, then at least understand what the limitations are. Do yourself a favor, and make an informed buying choice.

     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  18. llamallamaredpijama

    llamallamaredpijama New Member

    That's actually a very very valid point. I have the San Ramon, Fremont and San Jose stations within 10 minutes of me - I figured Fremont/San Jose would be the best bets.
     
  19. altfuelcarguy

    altfuelcarguy Member

    I've driven 13,000 miles in my Clarity Fuel Cell with no serious fueling problems. There's an app that keeps you apprised of station status. The commenter does not drive a fuel cell vehicle but is obviously opposed to them; he interjects his opinion nearly every time someone posts here. Those of us who actually drive the fuel cell cars are your best sources of honest information.

    Those of us who are giving this technology a chance are considered pioneers and as such are given a very good deal on the car and the fuel. If it suits your needs, and it sounds like it does, I highly recommend it. If you're eager to get one soon, try other northern California dealers, and put your name on their lists. Kristy at Automation Roseville Honda is has been great to with with.

    Glad to answer any questions or discuss the experience with you privately.

    I've driven all over the state using the existing station network. 35 more stations are in the works. I don't know if we'll get to 100, but given that you're in south Bay you've already got several to choose from.

    The commenter, I'm sure, will now provide more unsolicited arguments against hydrogen.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Inside EVs mobile app
     
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  20. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    It's certainly true that I am firmly opposed to mass production of FCEVs, for many reasons, and I do post frequently on the subject. But once someone has made up their mind to buy one, it would be at the very least rude of me to castigate them for their buying decision. There is, at least in my mind, a big difference between arguing FCEVs are not a good idea as a general rule, and heaping abuse on someone for choosing to own or drive a particular kind of car, regardless of what kind it is.

    This forum ought to have a "safe space" for those who do actually drive FCEVs to discuss their driving experience, and even those like me who are firmly opposed to auto makers mass producing them, ought to respect the idea of a safe space where people can discuss their actual driving experience without being hassled by nay-sayers.

    Since I do support the idea of such a "Safe space", I'm glad the moderator(s) here recently created a Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles heading in the "Other" section of this forum.

    * * * * *

    My comment above about checking for availability of H2 fueling stations before buying a FCEV was prompted by posts #92 and $#93 above, where Teslainvestors reports difficulties finding a H2 fueling station that is open and has fuel available to sell.

    I'm pretty sure Teslainvestors is not opposed to FCEVs, or at least he keeps commenting in support of them. Perhaps someone needs to tell him about the app you are using, the one that checks to see which H2 stations are selling fuel at any hour?

     
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