Assistance needed for next car.

Discussion in 'General' started by EdH, May 3, 2020.

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  1. EdH

    EdH New Member

    Hi, I'm new to the EV world and hoping to get some help on this forum. Little information first. I'm looking to purchase used/new car in 3-5 years. Depending on pricing at that time will determine if it is used or new. Watched a ton of electric car review YouTube videos to get a better understanding of electric cars. I've watched so many videos I've driven my wife crazy with the amount I watched.
    The car will be used to drive to/from work, approximately 350 miles per week. Weekend errands around town and the occasional short weekend trip 350 miles round trip to visit family. We currently have 2013 Kia Soul and 2016 Buick Encore. I'm a tall guy, 6'6" so I fit comfortable in both of those cars. We like the 2019 Kia E-Soul and the Hyundai Kona EV. I like the Tesla model 3, but...$$$$$. When we start pricing those two against gas powered versions. The wife sees the massive price difference.
    Assistance needed - Hopefully someone will be able to direct me to a website where I can compare multiple cars at same time. I want to show that the benefits an electric car versus a gas powered car, cheaper per mile to operate over lifetime of the car.
     
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  3. DucRider

    DucRider Well-Known Member

    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect

    But in 3-5 years, things will be very different. Great that you have decided to move to electric, but choosing a specific vehicle should likely wait.

    Scope our a NDEW (https://driveelectricweek.org/) event near you where you can look at a bunch of options in one place and talk to current owners. Many also have Ride and drives where you can get behind the wheel of a few.
     
  4. marshall

    marshall Well-Known Member

    Kelley Blue Book's web site has a comparison tool. But it doesn't appear to take into consideration any government tax incentives.

    https://www.kbb.com/compare-cars/
     
  5. EdH

    EdH New Member

    Thank you!!! Come to find out there is/was a Drive Electric event not far in town I work. I've bookmark the website and will keep an eye out. Hopefully we all can get back to some normalize in near future.
    The fuel economy site is good.
    I noticed that also. I would like to find a site that takes that into consideration so I can get a true "cost per mile".
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    You might consider an end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx. I'm seeing end-of-model year, 2016 BMW i3-REx for ~$20. More recent versions have greater EV range but would be more expensive. Use eBay "completed sales" to see what the run.

    I bought a 2014 BMW i3-REx, May 26, 2016, a first model year version. Its 5 year warranty ran out in 2019 and was needed due to an 'infantile' problem. It had a weak motor mount bolt that was fixed under warranty with a much stronger part. In Huntsville, it is a "10 stop" car before it could use a charge or crank up the motorcycle engine.

    The Range Extender (REx) car comes with a 640 cc, motorcycle engine that provides 25 kW if the car runs out of gas. With the engine, it can run 24x7 at 70 mph burning ~39 MPG. Like a motorcycle, it runs about 1 hr 15 min before needing another 2 gallons. So it has both 'long legs' yet EV cheap around town.

    I bought mine, $29k, via eBay in 2016 in Charlotte NC and drove it 400 miles home that evening ... my test drive. I've never looked back and it remains in service as backup for our Std Rng Plus Model 3. It is a great way to 'get your feet wet' without spending a lot of money. The operating costs are real and having a BMW i3-REx confirmed them.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    The EPA site lists the kWh/100 mi. Use that with your local electric rate to calculate the local operating cost:
    • 25kWh/100 mi * $0.11/kWh = $2.75 per 100 miles - my 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3
    • 29kWh/100 mi * $0.11/kWh = $3.19 per 100 miles - my BMW i3-REx
    These are the highest, EV costs around town. However, I soon switched to shopping where there are free, L2 chargers (i.e., Whole Foods, 5-Points, BridgeStreet.) Free charging covered about 1/3d of my EV miles.

    Cross-country, the BMW cost ~4x more than gas when using commercial, fast DC chargers. It is not a great EV cross country car but on gas, quite affordable. In contrast, my 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3 runs about $3.00-$3.50 per 100 miles in Tesla SuperCharger fees.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. DucRider

    DucRider Well-Known Member

    One thing none of the comparison sites seem to take into account is the much lower maintenance costs typical of EVs (and to a lessor extent PHEVs like the i3 REx, Honda Clarity, etc). With no ICE, you don't have oil changes, fuel filters, spark plugs, timing chains, etc.
     
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  10. I'm not sure any site has all the things you're looking for but Electric Vehicle Database could be useful for you, despite not having $U.S. pricing.

    I'd suggest that when you're almost ready, drop by with your approximate budget and requirements and I'm sure we could all offer a plethora of choices with positives and negatives of each.
     
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  11. EdH

    EdH New Member

    You are a wealth of information. Thank you. Last month electric rate was $0.11. So that is a good guide.
    Comparing my current cars to the Tesla, they are, at least, triple the cost per 100 miles on a cross-country trip. Both average around 30 mpg.
    Again thank you.
     
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  13. marshall

    marshall Well-Known Member

    It looks like to me that the Kelley Blue Book cost of ownership comparison does take repairs/maintenance and other costs into consideration in their 5 year cost of ownership numbers. However, it doesn't appear to include any tax incentives in the cost of ownership calculation.

    Edit: I see when you go into the breakdown there appears to be a negative value in the cost of taxes. How much of the various tax incentives are included in that number, I don't know. Plus, I don't see any federal tax credit money. So it's hard to see how they came up with the number.

    https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/total-cost-of-ownership/
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
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  14. Lex23

    Lex23 Member

    I did a very simple spreadsheet.. calculated how much gas I was buying a week in average and multiplied it by 52 (as you have the time you can actually track your gas)
    I added how many oil changes per week + other repair costs (like replacing the tranny fluid every 50k miles)..
    I reduced the total per year by an approx $40 per month (I was told that’s what I’d pay extra in electricity, but I haven’t spent that much since I got my Kona EV)

    After adding all, I divided per month and that gave me an idea how much I’d pay for an ice car on top of the monthly finance.. compared with that, the difference showed me it was actually a little cheaper to get the electric, and I did it calculating to get the Kona Ultimate which is more expensive.

    In my case it worked, especially as I had an old car I was already planning to change (and a huge gas waster!). I would recommend to track those expenses and check if it is worth it for you. For me even by being flat on my expenses with the electric, I wanted to feel better by reducing pollution and it helped my case (especially when trying to convince my wife)





    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
     
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  15. Bruce M.

    Bruce M. Well-Known Member

    A couple issues ago, Motor Trend compared the gasoline and electric versions of the Hyundai Kona on a road trip up the California coast and came away concluding that the Kona Electric was by far the better of the two vehicles -- though they noted that lack of advance planning caused them to spend more than they should have on charging. Since your purchase is some time away, it's probably too soon to try to calculate costs -- many things will change and new EV models will be coming out at a steady clip over the next couple years.
     
  16. FloridaSun

    FloridaSun Well-Known Member

    I considered several options when I purchased my Kona Electric last year. My first thought was to go the least expensive route and getting myself a used Chevy Bolt. This was in mid 2019 and used 2017 Bolts were still at about $23k to $24k. Then I started looking at new Tesla Model 3's (used ones were about the same price as new). I was close to pulling the trigger on a standard range plus Model 3 (which would have cost me about $41k less $3875 FEDERAL tax credit (which was the remaining tax credit still available prior to July 2019). Right now, that FEDERAL tax credit for the Model 3 is ZERO! So, the car would have cost me $37125 + sales tax on $41k, so approximately $40k considering all the expenses like registration and sales tax.
    Now, when researching EV's, I came across the new Kona Electric.. I only found out about that car in June 2019.. What made me take a closer look at the car was that I read about the 2019 LIFETIME WARRANTY on the EV battery.. My main concern with EV's has always been the life of the EV battery.. I called Hyundai to see if degradation is covered as they did not specifically mention it in their warranty. I asked a specific quesiton: Would I get a new battery if capacity drops to like 65% due to degradation. The person I talked to did not know and they called their supervisor. The supervisor confirmed that in this scenario, I would receive a replacement battery. Based on that information, I started researching prices and found a fantastic deal on a 2019 Kona Electric SEL in Maryland. I got $2200 off MSRP on one in the color that I wanted. So, my purchase price ended up being $36100. I already got my $7500 federal tax credit on my tax return, so the total cost for the car was $28600 + sales tax on $36100. My total cost with sales tax, registration etc. ended up somewhere around $31000. Now, the Kona electric gets a lot more range than the Standard Range Plus Model 3 even though they are rated similar in range (currently Model 3 Standard Range Plus is rated 250 miles and the Kona 258 miles in range) but independent range tests show that the Kona Electric performs closer to the Model 3 long range rather than the Standard Range Plus. Don't be confused by the EPA numbers. Look for actual real life range tests. In one of the tests, the Kona Electric even beat both, the Long Range and Performance version of the Model 3 and in other tests, it came very close to the Model 3 Long Range. The Kona's range is significantly underrated.
    In 11 months of ownership, I AVERAGE 4.8 mi/kwh which translates to 307 mile range.. I have never seen a Tesla Model 3 long range owner that averages close to their rated range. Of course, a car purchase is an emotional one. If it was just based on looks and prestige, I would have gone with the Model 3, even at $10k more. However, the combination of battery warranty, lower cost and better range on the Kona made the decision easy for me. I love Teslas as no other EV in that price range delivers better looks or better performance than the Model 3 but I tried to take emotion out of the equation and chose the car that was the best for my needs. So, I ended up with the Kona Electric and I did not regret it. Sure, I would love a Model 3 but it just wasn't worth the extra $10k , shorter battery warranty and shorter range. If I will buy a Model 3 at one point, it will have to be the Long Range version.. However, the Long Range would have run me additional $10k, so $20k more than the Kona Electric..
    If you decide to go with the Kona Electric, I would recommend getting one of the leftover 2019's as they come with the LIFETIME battery warranty (for original owner). Hyundai dropped that warranty for 2020. The 2020 model is virtually identical with the 2019..

    DISCLAIMER: I live in a warm climate (Florida), so I'm NOT using the heater at all. Range may vary for those who live in colder climates, so my average efficiency may not be achieved in states where you have to use the heater in colder months.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  17. Bruce M.

    Bruce M. Well-Known Member

    I am SO jealous of the deal you got on your Kona! When I was getting mine in the San Francisco Bay Area in March, they were in such short supply that not only were there zero discounts to be had, I had to settle for my 3rd choice color (happily, I like it just fine). And the dealership was run by idiots, but that's another story, lol.
     
  18. FloridaSun

    FloridaSun Well-Known Member

    i shop for cars Nationwide. My Kona was 1100 miles from where I live.. I flew up and drove it back.. I'm in Central Florida and I bought cars in Texas, Ohio, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York because I got a great deal on them. Drove all of them home.. I used to be into Corvettes and Florida is one of the more expensive places for classic Corvettes, so I usually saved thousands.. Flying up and driving home the cars cost me a few hundred but I saved thousands.. Once I even drove home a 1991 Ferrari Testarossa from Long Island to Florida.. I don't like dealing with shippers as it's a pain dealing with them if a car arrives damaged.
     
  19. The Kona's range/efficiency is impressive. I was watching a video and it showed a charge time at Kona’s maximum rate from 10-80% to take right around 50 minutes. I don’t know the Model 3’s charge time but I believe it to be notably faster at maximum. All that means to me is if you are going to use your EV as a long drive highway vehicle charge times and charger availability are very important.

    The Kona charging vid:
     
  20. EdH

    EdH New Member

    Thank you for your post. I did find that article interesting. With EV you do have to do more planning than just get into a ICE and go.
    Even with my purchase years away, I have a spreadsheet to calculate costs. With battery technology changing in the next few years. It will be interesting to see how far technology will be able to improve EVs.
     
  21. EdH

    EdH New Member

    Thank you! This is very helpful. I too, am looking at the same three cars Bolt, Model 3 and Kona. I would like to have a model 3 but price is too expensive for my taste. Bolt is nice, but being a bigger guy, 6'6" and the car would become my everyday car (commute to/from work, run around town and the occasional trip to sister-in-laws, 180 miles away). I want to be comfortable. Currently we have a Kia Soul and Buick Encore. So the Kona size fits the bill. My wife and I stopped at local Hyundai dealer to look at the Kona this past weekend. Thank you for the information about the battery lifetime warranty on 2019 models and that warranty being dropped on the 2020 models. As for the range, living in the Chicago area, I can achieve 300 + range maybe couple months a year.
    I am excited to see where the advancement in battery technology, cheaper production cost and lighter battery packs, in the coming years will take the range of EVs.
     
  22. FloridaSun

    FloridaSun Well-Known Member

    At 6'6", just don't ride in the rear seats in the Kona... In front, it's no problem.. I barely fit in the rear at 5'11"
     
  23. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Tesla just dropped the prices of the Model S/X/3 by thousands of dollars.

    Bob Wilson
     

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