To ANC or not to ANC, that is the question…

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Cash Traylor, Mar 5, 2020.

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  1. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    A long time ago, in a Thread far far away…

    Well, not that far – it is here: https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/audio-upgrade-for-clarity.2221/page-3

    First, this is a TMI post – please, only read this if you have imbibed something sufficient to bring your level of tolerance of the mundane to a degree you would not be annoyed in watching children's Saturday morning cartoons the entire day (now, not 30 years ago)…. You have been warned! Michener would be proud of the length of this post, so again, you cannot complain if you read it to the end – I will not refund the time lost on your life clock! And my Clarity's Tardis is not available for rent, so you can go back in time to before reading this – that’s a paradox in the making!

    Why am I starting a new thread? Well, the original discussion got lengthy (irony), and I wanted to put this somewhere with a starting point, and there are a lot of very smart people here, and they my have additional insight (pun) that whether actionable or not would make me smarter down the road… I'm also traveling for work - stuck in a hotel due to bad weather...

    Ok, I left off my audio upgrade thread with disconnecting the ANC module in my 2018 Clarity PHEV due to “booming” sounds coming from the amplified sub when the ICE “initially” turned on, per power cycle, to the extent I thought I was at an IASCA competition. No, I know this is not a Car Audio Installer’s forum, and I fully acknowledge that if it were not for “Clarity Honda-isms” this would be in the wrong place on the interwebs. However hang with me, my upgraded system sounds good, on par with most premium factory systems and I have no regrets with the ~$500 upgrade. I know that others have gone WAY beyond me by installing full signal processors, dedicated amplifiers, and very high end components, and I am truly and honestly envious of those systems. If my kids were grown and out of the house, I would have likely done the same. I may still, just have to wait until the wife wants new hardwood floors or something to bargain with… @CyberDyneSystems did a beautiful system install, and I LOVE THE REFERENCE TO YOYODYNE (please see my Infinite Improbability Drive and Flux Capacitor upgrades to my Clarity mentioned elsewhere) pure renaissance my friend, Kentucky too with the Dilithium upgrade to his OEM Lithium Ion HV battery as well.

    So, back to this post… I have been searching for a way (OCD/ADHD) to reintegrate the OEM Active Noise Cancellation (ANC) system in the Clarity. Spoiler alert – it isn’t worth it. I would bet most that if you unplugged it, with the factory system, and drove around you likely would not notice it gone (as long as you didn’t have confirmation bias blinding you). In most Honda products (my Acura as well) the ANC was a nice feature. The Clarity is just toooo quiet, and unless you are specifically talking about dampening the ICE, then it appears to do very little for ambient noise (or at least in the case of my car, who knows maybe mine was defective from the start). I still stand by my original assertion from the earlier thread that a good pair for touring tires with lower noise footprints will do more for ambient drive “rumble” than any ANC…

    So Cash, why this thread? Well, I thought I would pass along some info learned in the process and attach those good old documents that some will find interesting. I have had my car apart more than most, and have learned a bit. I really like this car, it is well designed and put together to be serviceable.

    I have dug through the Honda Tech subscription site and was blown away with a “diagnostic” post for Customers reporting a “BOOM BOOM while driving” and the guidance to technicians for this problem. Seems the first task is to go through and check for electrical issues around the ANC. In my original upgrade thread I mentioned that I planned to later go back and use maybe a PIC chip or other logic solution to remove the ”ICE START” notification from the ANC CAN bus node, as it was obvious to me this was a digital trigger causing the “BOOM” and not the ANC passive microphone reacting to something (since it only happened on the initial ICE start, not subsequent, and only once per power cycle of the car).

    Yep, I bet you are regretting reading this far….

    So, I decided that messing with all this on a car that is still under warranty (extended thank you), *Ken Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act wasn’t worth it. However, I am not that smart – I had to make sure there were no lost gains first. So I decided to re-wire my ANC system (see attached docs) so that I could selectively activate the ANC or the subwoofer, and also remove it entirely and “subjectively” and “objectively” compare the results (ok, honestly the objective portion was limited to what the software from https://studiosixdigital.com/ could do via my phone/ipad). I sold my IASCA RTA and SPL meters a long time ago and my ears are nowhere near “reference” anymore. Either way, I came to the conclusion that I could not subjectively tell a difference with the ANC module in the system in any “real world” driving situation. Ads say that the ANC achieves a 10 dB reduction in noise around and below 100 hz, if so – it is for drivers likely other than those in the market for this vehicle (sad face).

    So, pin 3 (green) on the ANC module is selective power. This is basically battery buss voltage (would follow the battery voltage rail) but it is not “switched” in that it has about ~400 microfarads on it in filtering. Since I have no idea the spec on this voltage output, I chose later to not treat it as a “remote amp” turn on line common in aftermarket systems. I used a SPDT switch to selectively turn on either the amplified sub (via remote turn on input) or close a relay to pass the factory receiver SWD+B line voltage to the ANC module. This was in my opinion the safest option and invisible when engaged via the scan tool or built in diagnostics. This output is used in the premium audio system that has a factory 540 watt amp and 12 speakers with sub to apparently activate that amp. However there is a lot going on in that system over SPDIF and an RS485 connection that I can't see since I don't own one. I personally think Honda should have made this premium system an option for the Touring PHEV trim, but that is just me being lazy, and I also admit they had reasons (weight).

    Now, the punch line here is amazing...to me at least. When I reconnected my ANC (for the first time after removing it post sound system install) I could not replicate the earlier "BOOM BOOM" problem (yes, sub was on). Tried everything but no go, so I am left with the possibility there was an original bad connection to the ANC that I inadvertently fixed while rewiring the connector... ugh, hate it when things fix themselves...

    So, can you install an aftermarket system with the ANC enabled, maybe - would you, likely not. However, the ANC in our specific vehicle seems mostly unneeded. In fact, if you leave the factory system installed, remove the ANC, hack your headunit so you can flat the OEM's audio DSP profile, and install viper4android (final puzzle piece to my system that I really like), you get a completely different sound system.

    Anyone who has gone the HondaHack route, but NOT replaced their OEM audio system? I would personally be interested in your thoughts on the DSP/Viper solution, with ANC removed or not, sound quality (assuming you are even dissatisfied with the OEM Clarity system to begin with as I was). I cannot go back to the factory speakers to test, but I would bet this would be an amazing bang for the buck at $10/$25 (HH basic or pro). At most I think that this last software part is sufficient to skip installing a digital sound processor in any audio upgrade involving only an amped sub and/or primary driver upgrades without dedicated all speaker amplifiers (like mentioned above).

    I have attached many documents below that I used in this saga. Even if this long winded post is useless to 99% of those out there, maybe these docs will be "nice to have" in your DIY folder of interesting tidbits.

    My condolences to you for reading this,

    Cash
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
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  3. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    Additional attachments
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    And finally a few photos...

    Cheers and thank you for your patience,
    Cash
     

    Attached Files:

  5. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Cash, all I can say is WOW!
    Thank your for “going where no man has gone before” and sharing such a treasure trove of info. I will be staying up late on several nights downloading and perusing all this. What a great source of previously unknown Clarity information.

    I dub thee Sir Cash, Knight of the Clarity Removal Table and you are now a life member of the Clarity Brain Trust.

    I doubt anyone has gotten into the guts of the Clarity more often than you have. Just gotta ask...how did you manage the numerous removal and replacements without breaking off any tabs (like I do)?

    And FYI, I can be adopted for a very nominal fee since you’re the perfect hybrid dad of geekiness and DIY!
     
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  6. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    @KentuckyKen ....I did not... I purchased a box of those metal and plastic fasteners/snaps and the requisite panel pry tools from Amazon, to replace the ones I broke, drilled out after failing to remove correctly, or just wore out (and I broke a tab or two along the way). I also grabbed a spare switch blank to remove that toggle switch when I am done testing, as I really do not like "extra" switches that don't look factory. Admittedly, my little switch blends in nicely and you would not see it if you didn't know it was there.

    Switch blank part number for those that want it: Lid, Switch Hole *NH900L* (Deep Black) Product ID: 77755-TBA-A00ZA, price is $0.60, but shipping was a %$&^$%.

    I am seriously considering going the development route on the openpilot, headless option. I have to wait for input from smarter people than I, @wirelessnet2,
    on the discord to see if I am barking up the wrong tree - and/or need to wait for further development. However, at some point I need to stop this insanity and get back to work...

    Thank you,
    Cash
     
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  8. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    I made it all the way to this point In the thread without applying internal liquid fortification, so I figured I may as well post. I found it very intriguing that your experimenting fixed the original booming. The aspect of our Clarity most influential in my wife’s decision to sell was the raucous ruckus our car made on the concrete Interstates in Michigan. Around town on good asphalt our car was whisper quiet, but on those few occasions we ventured out of town, we came back fatigued from the noise. As I’ve said in other posts, If our Clarity had ANC, it was not working. I wonder now if there was just a bad plug somewhere.
     
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  9. JohnT

    JohnT Active Member

    Thanks Cash for all the neat info....

    do you have better images for the Hondapins ?

    the jpgs are too rough to see when you magnify them

    Regards John
     
  10. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    @JohnT I recommend using the attached PDF documents that have schematics and connector diagrams. I am sorry I didn't take any detailed connector photos as basically you take it apart and put it back together. Those Hondapin references were found a long time ago and I have no idea were to look for those in original. I think they were screen grabs of the Honda maintenance manual in print, pre online.

    Also, in response to @Sandroad I have dug through anything I could find public regarding Honda's ANC processing. I can say that there is a bit of secret sauce and possibly a little confirmation bias regarding their implementation. I am in the process of tracking down more info on the actual module (what's inside the box) instead of Honda as there isn't much from them. If you use the Honda Tech site there is almost nothing out there regarding "testing" the ANC system. Admittedly without really special tools I doubt any dealer would even be capable. The annoying thing is that there isn't really any "test" as you cannot even run a diagnostic mode or self test on the system as a whole or the module specifically. It doesn't even have a dang POWER LED or any indication of status. The audio system diagnostics don't even know when it is plugged in or unplugged. Again, one of these days I am going to get an ebay honda scan-tool and buy the $25 day software license to just dig around. However I think that there may be info available to sniff out using a Panda OBDII plug. That is on order and I will report if it is one of those handy things to have like I hope.

    Cheers,

    Cash
     
  11. Sandroad

    Sandroad Well-Known Member

    We used the analog ear test on ANC (or lack thereof) in our Clarity. A couple years ago we test drove a Honda Crosstour with ANC and it was marvelously quiet all the time. It solved the famous Honda road noise problem.
     
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  13. Well Cash, it seems you have broken the 88MPH barrier! :) Seriously, this has been truly educational!


    On a side note, I've had my eye on the Comma AI for Clarity as well,. but it's all too daunting for me. Maybe if you manage to get it working I'll eventually wade in. Or maybe I'll get bored this summer,.
     
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  14. Does this by any chance include the UPS driver, the cafeteria worker, and the lawyer all led by the Janitor?
     
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  15. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    Don't forget the telephone sanitizers and most of the others from the "B" Arc (Golgafrincham).

    :)
     
  16. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Why of course it does, since they all know more about the Clarity than 99% of the dealerships.
     
  17. The Gadgeteer

    The Gadgeteer Active Member

    Cash,
    My comment is about your profile picture. It’s supposed to be 1.21 Gigawatts with a G. Yes, much to many people’s surprise the correct way to say the prefix “giga” is like many words that start with “gi” the sound is like a “J” but is spelled with a G. For example giant and giraffe. It’s not jiant or jiraffe. However, so many people have mispronounced giga as a G sound that it is now considered acceptable to pronounce it either way but it is still spelled giga. Back to Future came out in 1985 long before the general public started mispronouncing the Giga prefix which is now common in our technology.

    I am such a nerd :(
     
  18. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member


    @The Gadgeteer,
    I am very well aware of that... My degree was in Electrical Engineering...

    However, in the movie (of which my profile image is based) it was jigawatts, not gigawatts... part of the joke. Actually, you are incorrect on your pronunciation description and explanation, if you want to say I misspelled it then that is fine. However, you cannot apply pronunciation rules to the spelling critique, as you can pronounce it either way if you are referring to the prefix itself. For most in the American English Language for scientific descriptions of orders of magnitude it should be pronounced, as you said, with the hard German "g" which is how the IEC prefers it. How do you pronounce gigabyte? As you would not pronounce giga as jiga (giraffe or otherwise) in current scientific circles.

    However, if you are an engineer from the 60's or 80's, or live across the pond, then go for it. The pronunciation of "giga" does not change from watts bytes or meters - only from person to person, region to region, or generation to generation. The National Institute of Standards and Technology actually stated that it should be pronounced with the soft "g" ["j"] sound. So again, I am afraid you are basing your comments on something you hear in technology "gigabyte/gigabit" that has very little to do with the scientific or mathematics prefix itself. Your supposition about the pronunciation being tied to the spelling, right or wrong - actually does not apply here anyway, as a watt is not what is being discussed.

    This is part of the science fiction movie lexicon - if you are speaking about "Flux Capacitors" they only run on jigOwatts! And plutonium is always a yellow liquid contained in clear plastic cylinders (similar to the fuel in the 5th Element). I'm actually a geek, but I appreciate your input! I think my profile picture is very apropos considering the lineage and badging on my Clarity... I should actually, for complete accuracy, edit it to say "jig-o-watts"...

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/giga

    https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/you-say-gigawatt-i-say-jigowatt/

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gigawatt

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga-



    I appreciate it when people let me know when I am wrong, I always learn something. However, apparently I needed to explain the genesis of my "logo" since someone felt the need to try and correct something that is already printed in italics for a reason.


    Cheers,

    Cash

    P.S. I had originally considered this for my avatar as it is attached to my TIG/Plasma rig in my shop - and I think should be on the underside of my Clarity battery pack for the "oil change" techs at the dealer that have no clue what this car is. However, I digress...

    not-only-will-this-kill-you.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  19. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member Subscriber

    That's better than the warning above the high-voltage battery in my gen-1 Insight, which reads "killed or hurt" rather than "hurt or killed"

    upload_2020-3-11_20-26-41.png
     
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  20. TomL

    TomL Active Member

    Wow. Just wow.
     
  21. eneka

    eneka Member

    FYI the "premium audio system" comes with the FCEV. I had test driven that before getting my BEV and knew I wasn't imagining things when I felt the audio on the FCEV was better! I'd mess around with the audio if the BEV wasn't lease only!
     
  22. Robert_Alabama

    Robert_Alabama Well-Known Member

    For a few weeks I had a go and come high frequency whine even when the car was in park with or without the audio being on. No other things in the cabin seemed to change it when it was present (no climate settings caused a change, for example). Over the past week or so it has not been present. After reading this post, I wonder if it could be the ANC?
     
  23. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Well-Known Member

    @eneka

    Yes, I know the premium system comes with the FCEV, I actually included in my attachments above the schematic for the premium system which I used to trace-route some of the signal paths out of the AV processor. Note that you CANNOT modify the "premium audio system" option in the BEV or FCEV, only replace it with aftermarket. My "DSP" fix discussed below will NOT work on the Honda premium amplifier at all.

    All, it occurred to me that I have mentioned in at least two places in this forum about the "final piece" to my audio upgrade, and that it would be a cheap enhancement to the factory system for others. I certainly recommend it to anyone meeting the following criteria:
    1. You replaced the factory drivers with aftermarket, however did not install an amplifier or did but did not also install digital sound processor(s).
    2. You have, or plan to install, Honda Hack or root your Android Infotainment display (the MY16ADA tablet on your dash).
    3. You are comfortable owning your Infotainment system without warranty, see #2.
    As the "premium system" mentioned above (which includes a factory amp, 11 speakers, a subwoofer, and lots of goodies) is NOT available for ANY of our PHEV Clarity (Clarities/Claritys - what is the plural of this car anyway...) um, vehicles - it is possible to change the DSP settings in the headunit/which are processed by the receiver-amplifier. The factory DSP (digital sound processing) settings were tuned to make those anemic factory drivers sound good (kind of like Beats is bass heavy, Bose is tuned for warmer sounds, etc). I have NO IDEA how these changes would make a factory system sound, and it would be subjective to the listener anyway. However, these DSP changes are reversible, and in fact have to be applied at every startup (easy to do with a shortcut or auto-startup in HH).

    I know that some are maybe wondering what software to use or has been tested in the Clarity. Here is what I have used without issue. You have to be rooted or HH'd first - so there is that. Risk, low - if you only do this and do not install lots of root level software the chances of bricking you headunit are very low. If you use the online version of honda hack (autohack.org) it is very safe and easy - just read the instructions ALL THE WAY THROUGH before doing it (every manual says that...) The current retail price of your headunit is about $3k, on ebay I have seen them for about $500, so it is what it is. You brick it while rooting, your headunit warranty is voided (not the car warranty - just the tablet, same risk is the AV amp fails after you install a custom sound system).


    Here is the software you can use to modify the audio and flat the DSP. For me the sound improvement was dramatic (see my stereo build in another thread). This is the same packages I installed, they are open source, donate ware but free to post so this isn't copyright infringement. You can donate to the devs on XDA just google the packages SuperSU, BusyBox Stericson, Viper4Android, etc.


    *Disclaimer, I take no responsibility if you break your system, void your warranty, etc. This is an adult decision, so take adult responsibility. If you do not OWN the vehicle then do not do this, it WILL certainly void the conditions of your lease. Honda warning also attached. And NO, I do not use the "hide apps" feature when I take my car in for service. I fully accept if it breaks the tablet that is my fault. Files in zip have been scanned for viruses both Windows and Android.


    Procedure:

    1. Start your car, do not do any of this in Accessory Mode...
    2. Connect your car to WiFi follow HH guide and root your headunit (autohack.org) Select Clarity for your model, be patient, read guide first.
    3. Reboot headunit (hold power button for 10 seconds and say yes, turning your car on and off will not fix this.
    4. Install SuperSu (superuser.apk)
    5. Reboot
    6. Install Busybox, then go RUN busybox and select install (so it actually installs the busybox "linux" additional packages).
    7. Reboot (getting the idea here)
    8. Install DSP Flat
    9. Install Viper4Android 2.5
    10. Reboot
    11. Activate Viper4Andoid, install driver, set lock settings to Bluetooth, adjust audio goodness from there.
    12. Reboot
    13. Launch DSP Flat, let it run - touch nothing. Listen to the audio DSP flatten out, then launch V4A and enjoy all the benefits of a digital sound processor
    14. DSP FLAT resets on every restart of your car. You can autolaunch it using HH but I recommend just putting a shortcut on your homepage (is safer).
    15. You can uninstall busybox, as it is no longer required (tools installed).
    16. This works on almost all audio sources except secondary HD Radio channels (all tethered, Radio, USB, streaming audio are fine).
    Notes:
    • NEVER EVER UPDATE ANY OF THE PACKAGES, our headunit has an old version of Android max API 17 so you can break this stuff by upgrading.
    • If you install HH, only install other packages from it's package manager.
    • I highly recommend you NEVER install Google Play or Google Play Services on your head unit if you want it to not slow to a complete crawl.
    • If you have other questions - go to the Honda Hack XDA forums (there are about 500+pages of threads) and research it there. I gave you most everything hours of research and testing resulted in. I can answer a few questions but the Devs are your best source and a cup of coffee (few bucks) goes a long way with them.
    • Finally see here: https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/navigation-going-blank.5111/#post-55027
    Links depending on what you use for cloud storage, it is a zip file with the tested versions (you have to HH first):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/tdsgx3w3pmox1w0/DSP%20Mods%20for%20HH.zip?dl=0

    https://app.box.com/s/lmljepp8989dk0ihtosyxemojv0bky0q


    If you need another way let me know, I have some other hosting options.

    Cheers,

    Cash
     

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