EVs are bad for the environment?

What, this B.S. again?

That sort of B.S., seen many times over the past few decades, cites one or more fake studies funded by Big Oil for propaganda purposes.

Let's try applying common sense here. Making a battery pack almost always happens only once for the lifetime of a plug-in EV. Contrariwise, a tank full of gas or diesel has to be replaced hundreds of times over the average lifespan of the vehicle. Or even more than 1000 times for especially long-lived ones. And as a reminder, burning just one gallon of gasoline generates 20 pounds of CO2! Hard to believe, but it's true. Diesel certainly is no improvement; according to this study, burning diesel produces 13% more CO2 than burning gasoline! (Altho to be fair, all else being equal, a vehicle should burn less diesel than gasoline to travel the same distance.)

If you want the Truth, try reading what the Union of Concerned Scientists has to say on the subject:

"Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave: How Electric Cars Beat Gasoline Cars on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions"

​

 

Mazda cherry picked flawed data to meet their own world view, and do not provide proper attribution to their sources in attempt to obscure the truth.

E.g. 2017 reports that stated the CO2 impact of LiON battery manufacturing overstated the CO2 output by over 300%.

How can you get an accurate result when you're 300% out?

 

This is the master plan Mazda is working towards.

 

Mazda plan to be 5% BEV in 2030, and 95% Hybrid.

 

The level of self-delusion revealed by that projection is rather startling. Really, they see a future with a growing use of fool cell cars? And more PHEVs than BEVs in 2050?

Here's a group photo of Mazda's executive leaders:

 

Just wondering........
How is the performance of the super capacitor battery on EVs? ie when compared to the traditional batteries.

 

From the article:

• "With 35 kWh, the MX-30 should go 130 miles." - My 18.6 kWh, BMW i3-REx achieves an EPA rated 72 miles. Double both and you get 37.2 kWh and 144 miles, which makes the Mazda seem like my 2014 BMW i3-REx.

As a backup for our Standard Range Plus Model 3, the smallest one, the BMW i3-REx works. Replacement cost with another used, BMW i3-REx is in the $18-22k range. If I were to replace the BMW with a new car, I would go with a +300 mile, Long Range Model 3 or perhaps a Model Y. If another Tesla were forbidden, a Hyundai Kona (50 kW) or Ioniq (100 kW) might work but fast DC charging using Electrify America and EVgo, would be slow, expensive, unreliable, and in Dixie, unobtanium.

I am not a CO{2} puppet and remain very suspicious of claims about CO{2} from battery manufacturing. There are multiple LiON chemistries and manufacturers but these are never identified in the lay reports. The last 'paper' I read was a 2012 Swedish paper that made claims not backed by data observations. We can use a 'rule of thumb' that the CO{2} generated is proportional to the cost per kWh since it takes energy to make any LiON battery:

So doing 'back of the envelope' math, 176 / 707 ~= 25% of the 2012 CO{2} per kWh. Yet too often we see bald-faced claims, not backed by a credible study, that batteries generate a large amount of CO{2}. There is another basis of estimate (BOE).

If we take $176 per kWh and split the energy cost with materials and labor, we come up with ~$80 of energy cost per kWh. Then using recent USA energy sources:

• 35.2% - Natural gas (117 lbs/million BTU) ($14.71/million BTU)
• 27.5% - Coal (205 lbs/million BTU) ($10.18/million BTU)
• 19.4% - Nuclear (0 lbs/BTU) ($10.18/million BTU*)
• 16.9% - Renewables (0 lbs/BTU) ($10.18/million BTU*)

(*) I'm using coal cost, the minimum to guesstimate of these costs.

Given the USA average commercial rate of $0.11 per kWh, we can now estimate how much CO{2} comes from $80:

• $80 / $0.11 ~= 727 kWh
• 35.2% * 727 ~= 256 kWh natural gas * 3412 ~= 873,500 BTU
• 27.5% * 727 ~= 200 kWh coal * 3412 ~= 682,400 BTU

For estimation, thermal power plants are roughly 33% efficient (low efficiency case):

• 873,500 / 33% ~= 2,646,970 BTU -> 310 lbs CO{2}
• 682,400 / 33% ~= 2,067,879 BTU -> 424 lbs CO{2}
• ~734 lbs CO{2} per battery kWh

So let's have more 'back of the envelope' fun:

• 19.6 lbs CO{2} per gallon of gas -> 37.4 gallons of gas per battery kWh
• 22.38 lbs CO{2} per gallon of diesel -> 32.75 gallons of diesel per battery kWh

There are enough ***-umptions to take more than a pallet of toilet paper to clean up. But this was never intended as a definitive study but to bring things into perspective. On day zero, an EV will start with a CO{2} load equivalent to 32-38 gallons of diesel or gasoline. Typical Tesla batteries come in these sizes:

• ~50 kWh (mine) -> 1,638-1,870 diesel-gas gallons
• ~75 kWh (larger Model 3) -> 2,457-2,805 diesel-gas gallons
• ~100 kWh (Model S/X) -> 3,275-3,740 diesel-gas gallons

But this initial load is incorporated in the purchase cost. As an operator, my CO{2} cost is ~1/3d to 1/4th the cost per mile. Others have done more detailed modeling:

As an owner:

• Full power at lights - I reach the speed limit first.
• Very low noise, no oil changes, no brake pads, no exhaust
• 1/3d to 1/4th the cost per mile that I pay
• I don't care about manufacturing CO{2}

Bob Wilson

ps. Tesla battery costs are reported less than $100/kWh or 100 / 176 ~= 57% lower. Woot Woot!

 

Hmmmm.

Here is the simplified view of the oil supply chain from the oil lobby API. A lot of energy has to be expended from crude production till it gets to the point of sale. There is a lot of storage, transportation in smaller vehicles, and lot of leakage and hence green house gas emissions. Every hand-off from one element to another (loading or unloading), there is some emissions.

And many countries in the world, there are no pipelines, trucks move the fuel. And Japan of all countries, imports all its oil, everything has to come thousands of miles in ships. So for every gallon of gas into the fuel tank of a car, there is so much of associated emissions

So if you are looking at the emissions in battery production, you need to look at the emissions required in getting the crude to the pump. That would be a logical apples to apples comparison. But that would be to simple for a lobbyist!!!!!!!!!


https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Policy/Safety/API-Oil-Supply-Chain.pdf

 

And another one of Mazda's charts.Notice how they conveniently do not show wheel to well output for any renewable energy sources or nuclear. Only fossil fuel.

 

Not a bad guess. You're within 33% of IVLs 2017 figures.

The 2019 IVL report updates the CO2 output for battery manufacturing at 60 kg per kWh (132 lbs). Compared to 200 kg per kWh they reported in 2017, a figure Elon Musk rubbished at the time.

What's interesting is 80% of the energy use in manufacturing cells is in the electrode drying process. If Tesla does move to Maxwell's dry electrode solution, they can potentially cut CO2 output in battery manufacturing by a further 50%.

Here's a link to the report.
https://www.ivl.se/download/18.14d7b12e16e3c5c36271070/1574923989017/C444.pdf

 

Thanks! I noticed this:

According to new calculations, the production of lithium-ion batteries on average emits somewhere between 61-106 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt-hour battery capacity produced. If less transparent data is included, the upper value will be higher; 146 kilos carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt hour produced. The large emissions range primarily depends on production methods and the type of electricity used in the battery manufacturing process. Current figures for climate emissions are lower than they were in the 2017 report where the average was 150-200 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kWh of battery capacity.​

That is a factor of two in battery energy reduction per kWh in 3 years ... most impressive. However, I'd like specifics on where these metrics were made.

Bob Wilson

 

Another comment I see quite often is that BEV's are way heavier than their ICE counterparts, so they must use heaps more resources.

The reality is the weight difference isn't that large.
Nissan Leaf: 1,493 kg
Nissan Tida: 1,278 Kg
VW Golf: 1,389 Kg

Tesla Model 3: 1,645 kg
BMW 3 Series: 1,707 kg
Toyota Camry: 1,519 kg
Honda Accord: 1,420 kg

So on a material to manufacture basis, EV's appear to be within 10% of their ICE counterparts. Theoretically this means the CO2 required to manufacture an EV should not be significantly more than an ICE vehicle if using an efficient battery manufacturing process.

 

Never heard that before. The extra weight is good though in winter around here. Makes it easier to drive in bad weather.

 

My Standard Range Plus Model 3 weighed on truck stop scales came in a 4,000 lbs (1,818 kg) including dogs and driver. It has the smallest battery, ~55 kWh, of the Model 3 series. The biologics and tire kit would have been ~150 kg or ~1,668 kg. This source claims: https://weightofstuff.com/how-much-does-a-tesla-weigh/

while models 3 and X weigh 3,552 lbs (1,611 kgs) and 5,421 lbs (2,458 kgs) respectively​

Bob Wilson

 

Yeah, I'm fairly sure EVs average out to a fair amount better, all things considered, but any advances in the ability to efficiently recycle EV batteries certainly wouldn't hurt, regardless.